Keystone Kops ending. Probable blown call.

[MD Longhorn]

Mike questions how many runners you can watch. I have to ask... PU has got the play at 3rd after the initial play at 2nd. What is BU doing at this point. I can see somehow not seeing the play at first if F5 holds the ball or throws to pitcher. But I seriously have to wonder what BU was doing when the ball was thrown to first. There is OBVIOUSLY an attempted play there. Why isn't he calling the ballgame?

I hope you made a clear loud safe call at third so everyone knew he was safe.

And NEVER EVER EVER EVER play a game after it's over... no matter who is doing the begging. It has league repercussions, not just team repercussions. It could also have liability repercussions for you.

[AtlUmpSteve]

If this was a league that my association umpired, and if there was a protest filed with the league, my response to the league as the umpire representative is that none of this happened in their game. The game ended earlier; whatever they did after that was not official.

And, I would counsel and remind the umpires that they were on their own after that point, just like calling a pickup game in the street.

Regarding the play, you already got all the right answers.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Mike questions how many runners you can watch. I have to ask... PU has got the play at 3rd after the initial play at 2nd. What is BU doing at this point. I can see somehow not seeing the play at first if F5 holds the ball or throws to pitcher. But I seriously have to wonder what BU was doing when the ball was thrown to first. There is OBVIOUSLY an attempted play there. Why isn't he calling the ballgame?

I don't disagree BU should have followed the ball to 1B. However, I believe it was already stated that the umpires saw a player at 1B, but maybe not the BR. This is an error, but 2 umpires cannot watch 3 runners the entire time without missing one of the plays, possibly the out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't disagree BU should have followed the ball to 1B. However, I believe it was already stated that the umpires saw a player at 1B, but maybe not the BR. This is an error, but 2 umpires cannot watch 3 runners the entire time without missing one of the plays, possibly the out.

True, but the one runner you're not looking at is CERTAINLY not going to be the one heading to a base that the ball is being thrown to.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

True, but the one runner you're not looking at is CERTAINLY not going to be the one heading to a base that the ball is being thrown to.

Stop and think about the play. The ball is in LF, then to 2B, then to 3B and then to 1B. If I'm BU, I'm coming inside while looking through R1 for a 1st touch. Watching and making the call on the play at 2B and THEN looking for BR. In this play, the BR is the least of my concerns.

If there is a question, I will not hesitate to discuss with my partner, which is what happened here. You are not going to see everything and an umpire must prioritize at times.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Stop and think about the play. The ball is in LF, then to 2B, then to 3B and then to 1B. If I'm BU, I'm coming inside while looking through R1 for a 1st touch. Watching and making the call on the play at 2B and THEN looking for BR. In this play, the BR is the least of my concerns.

I agree with the last sentence... UNTIL the ball is thrown to first. I get losing sight of BR for a moment with all the other action... but if you, as BU, cannot get the play at 2nd (he's out now... is there any reason to keep your focus here? No.), and then between the time it takes to throw to third and then throw to first, you can't manage to be watching first base - you need to pack it up. If multiple throws with multiple runners confuse you so much that you can't be watching a base where the ball is thrown to - it's over. Go home.

Seriously - I thought you were a supervisor. I can't imagine you being at a game where this sitch happens, and you not RIPPING the BU who was not watching first base when the ball was freaking thrown to first base to make a play. WTH was he looking at? PU has third, no play any more at 2nd. To say you can't be ready to make a call at first is completetly asinine. Once that ball is thrown, there is NO OTHER PLACE on the field you should be looking. When F3 caught the ball ... where was the offense? Should be relatively easy to see if BR had run through the bag, or even rounded to 2nd, or was NO WHERE in sight.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I agree with the last sentence... UNTIL the ball is thrown to first. I get losing sight of BR for a moment with all the other action... but if you, as BU, cannot get the play at 2nd (he's out now... is there any reason to keep your focus here? No.), and then between the time it takes to throw to third and then throw to first, you can't manage to be watching first base - you need to pack it up. If multiple throws with multiple runners confuse you so much that you can't be watching a base where the ball is thrown to - it's over. Go home.

Seriously - I thought you were a supervisor. I can't imagine you being at a game where this sitch happens, and you not RIPPING the BU who was not watching first base when the ball was freaking thrown to first base to make a play. WTH was he looking at? PU has third, no play any more at 2nd. To say you can't be ready to make a call at first is completetly asinine. Once that ball is thrown, there is NO OTHER PLACE on the field you should be looking. When F3 caught the ball ... where was the offense? Should be relatively easy to see if BR had run through the bag, or even rounded to 2nd, or was NO WHERE in sight.

The point is the BU has his back to 1st when the ball is coming from LF to 2nd and covering the play there. That is when the BR apparently wandered off, just after the catch, amd might have "abandoned". Is isn't the time of the play at 1st that is the problem, it is the BR during the play at 2nd.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The point is the BU has his back to 1st when the ball is coming from LF to 2nd and covering the play there. That is when the BR apparently wandered off, just after the catch, amd might have "abandoned". Is isn't the time of the play at 1st that is the problem, it is the BR during the play at 2nd.

I am not getting that from the OP. Defense is claiming an out because BR "never went to first". So, Mr BU - where is the batter when the ball gets thrown there? Surely BU can make at least the judgement of A) past first, B) on first, or C) nowhere near first or not yet to first. A and B is safe. C is an out. I'm having trouble understanding why this is difficult. I understand that BU did not see BR before the ball started heading toward first - but surely there is enough information to determine if there's an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I agree with the last sentence... UNTIL the ball is thrown to first. I get losing sight of BR for a moment with all the other action... but if you, as BU, cannot get the play at 2nd (he's out now... is there any reason to keep your focus here? No.),

You are right, when the ball is in the infield, you stay with the ball as it will take you to the play. I have never been to a school where the staff did not do every thing they could the embarrass someone by not throwing to a base the umpire is watching and waiting.

and then between the time it takes to throw to third and then throw to first, you can't manage to be watching first base - you need to pack it up. If multiple throws with multiple runners confuse you so much that you can't be watching a base where the ball is thrown to - it's over. Go home.

The OP clearly states that when the throw went to first, THE BR WAS THERE. What more do you want?

Seriously - I thought you were a supervisor. I can't imagine you being at a game where this sitch happens, and you not RIPPING the BU who was not watching first base when the ball was freaking thrown to first base to make a play. WTH was he looking at? PU has third, no play any more at 2nd. To say you can't be ready to make a call at first is completetly asinine. Once that ball is thrown, there is NO OTHER PLACE on the field you should be looking. When F3 caught the ball ... where was the offense? Should be relatively easy to see if BR had run through the bag, or even rounded to 2nd, or was NO WHERE in sight.

I think you have clearly missed the OPs statements and seem to be looking to slam someone. The only, ONLY discussion is whether the BR entered DBT.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The OP clearly states that when the throw went to first, THE BR WAS THERE. What more do you want?

This may be the crux of our disagreement. No. It doesn't. Not even close. BR was not "there" until after an umpire huddle and an announcement of where baserunners should go ... in fact, it emphasizes the "NOW" as in ... NOW, after we've done all this, BR is there - but we don't know if he was there earlier. It ABSOLUTELY (I just read it) does not say he was there when the throw went to first. THIS is what I have a problem with - when the throw goes there, surely SOMEONE watched it go - and would know where BR was when the ball got there.

I think you have clearly missed the OPs statements and seem to be looking to slam someone. The only, ONLY discussion is whether the BR entered DBT.

I am NOT looking to slam someone. Reread the OP. The batter is not mentioned until AFTER the umpire huddle and announcement. If the discussion is about whether he went into DBT or not, I agree with your other statements... to me, that's not the discussion. The discussion is about whether BR was safe or not and how the umpires could have missed that. Surely you can see why I took your statement that you can't see everything as appalling considering what I thought we were talking about.

From the OP:

Totally our fault, but in all the confusion we lost track of him. Of course he's standing there NOW, but the defense says he wasn't there when the throw went to first. I can tell that the defense isn't trying to snow us. And I now have a creeping suspicion that we mistook either the original runner on 1st or maybe the base coach for the batter. But neither my partner nor I could definitively say that the batter HADN'T been on first

The OP does not say that the defense is saying he went into DBT on his way to first. It doesn't say that PU and BU are worried about whether he went to DBT. To put what I'm trying to say in 1 sentence, it says, VERY clearly,

THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER BR WAS ON FIRST WHEN THE THROW WENT OVER.

This is my complaint.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Stop and think about the play. The ball is in LF, then to 2B, then to 3B and then to 1B. If I'm BU, I'm coming inside while looking through R1 for a 1st touch. Watching and making the call on the play at 2B and THEN looking for BR. In this play, the BR is the least of my concerns.

If there is a question, I will not hesitate to discuss with my partner, which is what happened here. You are not going to see everything and an umpire must prioritize at times.

Irish makes an excellent point here.
I can certainly envision that while the BU was taking care of his responsibilities during this part of the play, and with the PU moving down the 3rd baseline, that the BR is back there somewhere a few steps down the 1st baseline, giving it the typical SP "moan&groan" about (in his mind) his crappy at bat, and heads to the his team's bench area.....AND both the BU&PU having this happen behind them as their backs are to the 1st baseline as they're taking care of what they need to care of at that particular moment.
Depending on just where the entrance to the bench area was and the distance it was from the 1st baseline, I can see the BR in a matter of seconds being able to step-in, step back out of the bench area and continue on to 1B....without it being noticed by the BU.

To chymechowder:
Nice job huddling up (twice) with your partner in the middle of all the chaos
and keeping your composure and trying to sort it out and get it right. Easy to say, but tough to do when all hell is breaking loose.
That part right there is good umpiring.