tag play

[youngump]

Originally Posted by johnsonrod

this was the cliffs notes version of the discussion ncasa alluded to regarding a different play













this is when all h*ll broke loose



that last question is really the crux of the whole "debate".

In softball yes, the runner is out. (In baseball as I understand it, no, because by interpretation or style or tradition, the fielder must finish the tag by maintaining possession.)

However, and you seem to miss this even though people kept telling you over and over on the other thread: whether the fielder actually had possession before the tag is a judgment call and that judgment call is heavily influenced by what happens before and afterwards.
So the discussion board post:
F2 had possession and tagged the runner and the ball came loose is easy:
runner is out.
But in the real world it isn't usually that clear and that's why everyone keeps telling you this is all about judgment.
________
Multisquirter

[johnsonrod]

Originally Posted by youngump

In softball yes, the runner is out. (In baseball as I understand it, no, because by interpretation or style or tradition, the fielder must finish the tag by maintaining possession.)

However, and you seem to miss this even though people kept telling you over and over on the other thread: whether the fielder actually had possession before the tag is a judgment call and that judgment call is heavily influenced by what happens before and afterwards.
So the discussion board post:
F2 had possession and tagged the runner and the ball came loose is easy:
runner is out.
But in the real world it isn't usually that clear and that's why everyone keeps telling you this is all about judgment.

i was also told that if a fielder, who is undoubtedly securely possessing the ball attempts a swipe tag on a runner, and the instant after the swipe tag is made, the ball comes out, that the runner is safe. it was that response that confused me bc it seemingly contradicted the same person earlier sentiment that a runner would be out even if the ball came out after the tag.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by johnsonrod

i was also told that if a fielder, who is undoubtedly securely possessing the ball attempts a swipe tag on a runner, and the instant after the swipe tag is made, the ball comes out, that the runner is safe. it was that response that confused me bc it seemingly contradicted the same person earlier sentiment that a runner would be out even if the ball came out after the tag.

You're trying to count nits. Since it is judgment, the criteria is all that can be really described. You aren't going to get an answer to the question, How much time "after" is required for the runner to be out? The rule says "none"; the reality says "judgment."

In the MLB clip, in slow motion, I'd say the runner would be out in softball. Others here disagree (judgment as to when the catcher lost control - during the tag or after). In real time, hard to say what would actually be called. Again, judgment based on what the actual plate umpire actually saw.

[MD Longhorn]

I guess what you're calling for here then is instant replay and cameras in every glove. It is impossible to determine exactly what instant the ball became even the slightest bit loose. The fielder must control the ball WHEN the tag is made... Even that description is not an instant in time - a tag takes SOME time, even if short. If the ball spurts out immediately after a tag, the assumption is that it was not secure when the tag is made. As others have said - it's judgement, and there's no way to determine with 100% accuracy whether the ball was completely secured at the moment of the tag - so we have to go with what we see.

I have safe in the play in question as well, even in slow-mo.

[johnsonrod]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I guess what you're calling for here then is instant replay and cameras in every glove. It is impossible to determine exactly what instant the ball became even the slightest bit loose. The fielder must control the ball WHEN the tag is made... Even that description is not an instant in time - a tag takes SOME time, even if short. If the ball spurts out immediately after a tag, the assumption is that it was not secure when the tag is made. As others have said - it's judgement, and there's no way to determine with 100% accuracy whether the ball was completely secured at the moment of the tag - so we have to go with what we see.

I have safe in the play in question as well, even in slow-mo.

why would one assume that. if the fielder catches a thrown ball in their glove and has it in their glove for 5 seconds before the tag, much longer than what would be needed to call a batter out on a batted ball, but the ball comes out immediately after the tag, why would one rule the ball was not previously securely held.

would you say, 100% of the time, that when a fielder has the ball securely posses, the runner is out the instant the tag is applied, regardless if the ball comes loose a millisecond after the tag?

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by youngump

...whether the fielder actually had possession before the tag is a judgment call and that judgment call is heavily influenced by what happens before and afterwards...

Originally Posted by Dakota

...Since it is judgment, the criteria is all that can be really described. You aren't going to get an answer to the question, How much time "after" is required for the runner to be out? The rule says "none"; the reality says "judgment."... Again, judgment based on what the actual plate umpire actually saw.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

...As others have said - it's judgement, and there's no way to determine with 100% accuracy whether the ball was completely secured at the moment of the tag - so we have to go with what we see....

Originally Posted by johnsonrod

...would you say, 100% of the time, that when a fielder has the ball securely posses, the runner is out the instant the tag is applied, regardless if the ball comes loose a millisecond after the tag?

As others have said, this is a judgment call. I would have to be there and see the play. I might see it different than mbcrowder, than Dakota or than youngump. I see what I see and make a ruling based on that information. When coach comes to gripe about my call, I tell him, "Coach, in my judgment..." End of story, the play stands.

[NCASAUmp]

+

[youngump]

Originally Posted by johnsonrod

why would one assume that. if the fielder catches a thrown ball in their glove and has it in their glove for 5 seconds before the tag, much longer than what would be needed to call a batter out on a batted ball, but the ball comes out immediately after the tag, why would one rule the ball was not previously securely held.

would you say, 100% of the time, that when a fielder has the ball securely posses, the runner is out the instant the tag is applied, regardless if the ball comes loose a millisecond after the tag?

It's not that you're not getting this because you're trying hard and having trouble; rather, you are trying to argue instead of listen.

On paper, if the ball is securely held for even an instant while the ball makes contact with the runner the runner is out.
On a ballfield, the umpire has to determine if the ball is securely held while the ball makes contact with the runner and doing so requires a lot of judgment. Generally, if the fielder already had possession of the ball long before the tag, having it come loose as a result of contact is going to make it much more likely that a tag was made first but it'll still be a judgment call. If the fielder just gained the ball (as in the OP), then it coming out immediately after is going to weigh a lot more heavily. But it'll still be a judgment call and umpires will disagree about how much control was had when in various situations.
________
MiniCherry live

[SRW]

Originally Posted by youngump

On paper, ...
On a ballfield, ...

Holy schitt... I think the student gets it. It only took 4 years...

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by johnsonrod

why would one assume that. if the fielder catches a thrown ball in their glove and has it in their glove for 5 seconds before the tag, much longer than what would be needed to call a batter out on a batted ball, but the ball comes out immediately after the tag, why would one rule the ball was not previously securely held.

would you say, 100% of the time, that when a fielder has the ball securely posses, the runner is out the instant the tag is applied, regardless if the ball comes loose a millisecond after the tag?

If the ball was securely held it would not have come loose.