tag play
 

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asa rules, assume the catcher was securely in control of the ball prior to the tag (in case there was any doubt), and assume the runner didnt kick the ball out of the glove, would the runner be out or safe?

Oh boy, here we go again...

Haven't we been over this?

ASA play at the plate - SoftballFans.com

This is unbelievable. Already starting to tune up that damn piano

its a simple safe or out question regarding this specific play. i dont see why you are afraid to answer it.

Safe.

Well, sadly, now you're on our turf, and you're now on my ignore list. I've answered your question repeatedly, but you're too dense to comprehend it.

I'm done with this thread, too.

I've not seen wherever else this was tossed around... The runner would be safe. Clearly. If you think otherwise, explain why.

How about because the ball did not pop out of the glove until the catcher's glove smacked into the ground, after the tag? (In spite of what the announcer says, I don't see the ball being kicked out... it pops out when the glove hits the ground.)

Mike, the link was given. It's on another board.

To the OP, I would have a safe call, but not for the reason you are trying to get at. I do not have "safe" because the fielder did not maintain possession AFTER the tag. I have "safe" because the fielder did not maintain possession DURING the tag. The ball was not controlled DURING the tag because F2 did not hold the ball securely enough. As you can see in the video (and it is more apparent in the slow-mo), the ball is leaving the glove as the tag is applied.

ASA 8-8-G: The runner is not out:
When a runner off a base:
1. is touched with a ball not securely held by a fielder.

Dakota, I disagree. The ball was "snow-coned" before that, and the glove never actually hit the ground; his arm did.

Let's not forget, MLB might have a different rule regarding tags. They might require possession after the tag. I have no idea if this is the case, but just keep it in mind.

this was the cliffs notes version of the discussion ncasa alluded to regarding a different play

this is when all h*ll broke loose

that last question is really the crux of the whole "debate".

In softball yes, the runner is out. (In baseball as I understand it, no, because by interpretation or style or tradition, the fielder must finish the tag by maintaining possession.)

However, and you seem to miss this even though people kept telling you over and over on the other thread: whether the fielder actually had possession before the tag is a judgment call and that judgment call is heavily influenced by what happens before and afterwards.
So the discussion board post:
F2 had possession and tagged the runner and the ball came loose is easy:
runner is out.
But in the real world it isn't usually that clear and that's why everyone keeps telling you this is all about judgment.
________
Multisquirter

you dont see the ball become "snow coned" until the glove makes contact with the leg (or vice versa). up until that point, the ball is held in the catchers glove

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/...6706b7b9_m.jpg

its not until after the instant the tag is made that the ball comes out

i was also told that if a fielder, who is undoubtedly securely possessing the ball attempts a swipe tag on a runner, and the instant after the swipe tag is made, the ball comes out, that the runner is safe. it was that response that confused me bc it seemingly contradicted the same person earlier sentiment that a runner would be out even if the ball came out after the tag.

You're trying to count nits. Since it is judgment, the criteria is all that can be really described. You aren't going to get an answer to the question, How much time "after" is required for the runner to be out? The rule says "none"; the reality says "judgment."

In the MLB clip, in slow motion, I'd say the runner would be out in softball. Others here disagree (judgment as to when the catcher lost control - during the tag or after). In real time, hard to say what would actually be called. Again, judgment based on what the actual plate umpire actually saw.

I guess what you're calling for here then is instant replay and cameras in every glove. It is impossible to determine exactly what instant the ball became even the slightest bit loose. The fielder must control the ball WHEN the tag is made... Even that description is not an instant in time - a tag takes SOME time, even if short. If the ball spurts out immediately after a tag, the assumption is that it was not secure when the tag is made. As others have said - it's judgement, and there's no way to determine with 100% accuracy whether the ball was completely secured at the moment of the tag - so we have to go with what we see.

I have safe in the play in question as well, even in slow-mo.