crazy play...did I get it right?

[umpharp]

ASA SP....one man (but the play could happen in any division)

Bases loaded with 2 outs. R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B

ground ball to deep short. SS kicks the ball around for a while then throws to 3rd. 3B goes for a swipe tag on R2 but misses. R2 also misses 3B. Stupid 3rd baseman then throws to 2b to try to get R3 who is about 3 or 4 inches off of second base. R2 starts home, gets half way, decides to go back. R2 gets tagged out. The question is....does R1 score?

After delaying for a minute as the defense went into the dugout, I announced that the run counted. The coach came out and asked why since it was a force. I explained that it was not a force, once he had reached third base, it was no longer a force and it was now a timing play. The coach then said, "he never touched third." I didn't say anything and waited a second for the coach to say those magic words, but he never did. He told me I was wrong and we went on our merry little way for the rest of the game.

Did I get the call right?
If the coach had appealed, should I have honored the appeal? The team had already went into the dugout, but it was right after I made my ruling that the run counted that the coach came out to discuss the play.

I think I would have honored the 4th out appeal, but I don't know if that is by the book.

[derwil]

No SP umpire here but sounds like you're on top of it. If appeal for touching 3rd, run no count. Otherwise, count it.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by umpharp

The coach then said, "he never touched third." I didn't say anything and waited a second for the coach to say those magic words, but he never did. He told me I was wrong and we went on our merry little way for the rest of the game.

Did I get the call right?
If the coach had appealed, should I have honored the appeal? The team had already went into the dugout, but it was right after I made my ruling that the run counted that the coach came out to discuss the play.

I think I would have honored the 4th out appeal, but I don't know if that is by the book.

If the coach came out before the defensive team left the infield, he is in time
to make an appeal. What I am missing is what magic words you were waiting for; why isn't "he never touched third" clear enough to you??

I don't believe in magic words. The responsibility of the defense in making an appeal is to make clear what it is they are attempting to appeal; nothing ambiguous, no accidental appeals, but we don't even require any words when it is clear they are making an appeal (such as leaving early on a fly ball, and beating the returning runner). So, why are you expecting a very specific wording here?

To make it easier for everyone, I think I might have added "Oh, are you appealing he missed third?", then ruled R2 out on appeal, and disallowed the run.

[umpharp]

"He never touched third." is a statement. He wasn't asking me anything.
If he would have said, "He never touched third, did he?" or something liike that, I would have done things differently, but him making a statement isn't enough for me.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by umpharp

"He never touched third." is a statement. He wasn't asking me anything.
If he would have said, "He never touched third, did he?" or something liike that, I would have done things differently, but him making a statement isn't enough for me.

A possible scenario:
Him: "He never touched third."
You: "Are you asking me, or telling me?"

Another possible scenario:
Him: "He never touched third."
You: "Do you have a question, coach?"

I'm in agreement with Steve on this. Don't make it hard for the players to "guess" what you want them to say. If it's obvious what their intent is, go with it. Don't be "that guy" they talk about to the next umpire tomorrow.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by umpharp

ASA SP....one man (but the play could happen in any division)

Bases loaded with 2 outs. R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B

ground ball to deep short. SS kicks the ball around for a while then throws to 3rd. 3B goes for a swipe tag on R2 but misses. R2 also misses 3B. Stupid 3rd baseman then throws to 2b to try to get R3 who is about 3 or 4 inches off of second base. R2 starts home, gets half way, decides to go back. R2 gets tagged out. The question is....does R1 score?

Don't know, did he touch the plate prior to R2 being tagged?

After delaying for a minute as the defense went into the dugout, I announced that the run counted.

Don't hesitate. This is a sell call, make it immediately.

The coach came out and asked why since it was a force. I explained that it was not a force, once he had reached third base, it was no longer a force and it was now a timing play. The coach then said, "he never touched third." I didn't say anything and waited a second for the coach to say those magic words, but he never did. He told me I was wrong and we went on our merry little way for the rest of the game.

Two things here. I agree with Steve, this qualifies as an appeal. The coach wasn't guessing and made a statement of fact. This isn't Jeopardy, there is no requirement to make the appeal in the form of a question.

And it would be a proper appeal, if the coach were authorized to make it. An infielder may make a dead ball appeal prior to the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory.

The coach has every right to question the run, but the appeal on a missed base is not his to make.

[greymule]

R2 was the third out on the tag, not on an appeal. In ASA, you can't get an advantageous fourth out on a runner who did not score. Assuming R1 touched the plate before the third out, his run counts. Since they didn't score, R2 and R3 are immune from appeals, as is the batter. In fact, after the defense tagged R2 for the third out, even if they noticed that the batter had not run but was still standing around the plate, they could not get the advantageous out at 1B.

(Unless ASA changed its rule recently.)

[MD Longhorn]

Grey - I don't believe this is true regarding the batter. There is a 4th out to be made there. The rest, though, I agree with. R2 is out - and any way I reread this rule, I can't legitimately find a way to re-rule R2 out on appeal.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Grey - I don't believe this is true regarding the batter. There is a 4th out to be made there. The rest, though, I agree with. R2 is out - and any way I reread this rule, I can't legitimately find a way to re-rule R2 out on appeal.

Not sure where there is a 4th out appeal to be made on the batter. Can you provide an example? I'm with grey on this one.

[greymule]

The ASA casebook play is basically this: R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, two outs. B3 strikes out but the ball gets away from F2. B3 does not run but instead watches R1 score and R2 get put out at the plate for the third out. Then the defense throws to 1B to get B3.

The ruling is that B3 didn't score and so the defense cannot get an advantageous fourth out. R1's run counts.

Before the rule change, ASA gave the exact same case play and ruled B3 out on the fourth-out appeal, and R1's run was nullified.

The change is several years old. ASA is the only code I know of that handles fourth outs this way.

PS. My own feeling, whether or not fourth-out appeals on nonscoring runners are permitted, is that the fourth out on the batter at 1B is not an appeal. It's simply playing on the batter before he gets to 1B. However, that's not the way they interpret it.

[BretMan]

The ASA rule on fourth out appeals is that they may be made ONLY against a runner who has scored. As far as I know, they are unique in that interpretation.

In ASA coaches do not have the right to make appeals for baserunning mistakes. So, no matter how this coach phrased it to you, it wouldn't be valid appeal.