Tagging Up

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by hit4power

Not a blue so don't generally post here, but I think the reason you've never seen this in baseball is that no one can hit a pop-up high enough to give the runner time to get home and back to 3B.

Then you have never seen Mike Schmidt hit. There is speculation that some of his pop-ups traveled just as far as his HR, just more vertical

It's 60yds from 3B to home and back and a world class 60 yd dash time is 7 seconds. Allowing an extra second for the time to stop and turn around before sprintinig back to 3B plus assuming less than world class speed and I'd guess that the best 3B-Home-3B time you could hope for is 8 seconds or a bit more. Some quick calculations show that a pop-up with an 8 second hang time has to be hit about 260ft high or over the top of a 17 storey office building. Not saying it couldn't ever be done, but awfully hard. At a MLB game the other day, I counted the hang times (I know, but the physics of stuff like this is interesting to me) of several really high pop-ups and none even got to 6 seconds.

But the issue here is more of "unringing" the bell as opposed to the runner returning their status to being "in jeopardy".

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Are you saying that in 'baseball rules', that if said runner has a brain fart after touching home plate, (and an uncaught fly ball), but thinks the ball was caught, and retouches home plate on his way back to tag up 3rd, that run is not 'unscored' ?

True. The ball was not caught so there's no reason to retouch. It was thus legally scored and nothing the runner does can change that.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If this is true (and I'm not convinced yet), then in baseball, this player's tactic would have worked the way he wanted it to. I can't imagine, were this the actual case, that NO ONE in 100+ years of ball has thought of trying this on a sky-fly-ball, especially a high and short one that they aren't likely to score on anyway.

HUH?

If the ball is caught the runner has to retouch or be out on appeal. Why would it be an advantage to run to the next base and back? Or did you not understand what I said in the post (So if the fly is caught and you need to tag the run was not legally scored so you can retreat).

[hit4power]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;683488]Then you have never seen Mike Schmidt hit. There is speculation that some of his pop-ups traveled just as far as his HR, just more vertical

LOL, Well, actually I have seen him hit. I grew up in Pittsburgh so any time Mike popped up, no matter how high it went, we were happy. And if you substitute Willie Stargell for Mike, then I've seen some towering pop-ups, but I still doubt that I saw any with a 8+ second hang time.

I'll butt out, since Irish is right that this is about the rules not the physics. I really enjoy reading this forum - all of y'all have taught me a lot - thanks!

[IRISHMAFIA]

[quote=hit4power;683501]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then you have never seen Mike Schmidt hit. There is speculation that some of his pop-ups traveled just as far as his HR, just more vertical

LOL, Well, actually I have seen him hit. I grew up in Pittsburgh so any time Mike popped up, no matter how high it went, we were happy. And if you substitute Willie Stargell for Mike, then I've seen some towering pop-ups, but I still doubt that I saw any with a 8+ second hang time.

Yeah, but Stargell held the distance record for Veterans Stadium in Philly, into the entrance tunnel halfway up the upper deck in right field (just about where I was sitting when the Phillies won the series in game 6 in 1980), so Willie hit them high AND far

[hit4power]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;683506]

Originally Posted by hit4power

Yeah, but Stargell held the distance record for Veterans Stadium in Philly, into the entrance tunnel halfway up the upper deck in right field (just about where I was sitting when the Phillies won the series in game 6 in 1980), so Willie hit them high AND far

Wow, I actually saw that shot on TV - he hit it through one of those tunnels in the upper deck and the announcers were speculating about whether it bounced out of the stadium and fell 5 storeys into the parking lot. I also saw him hit one over the right field roof and out of the park at old Forbes field in Pittsburgh. You didn't have to hit it that far, but you sure had to hit it high...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by hit4power

Not a blue so don't generally post here, but I think the reason you've never seen this in baseball is that no one can hit a pop-up high enough to give the runner time to get home and back to 3B. It's 60yds from 3B to home and back and a world class 60 yd dash time is 7 seconds. Allowing an extra second for the time to stop and turn around before sprintinig back to 3B plus assuming less than world class speed and I'd guess that the best 3B-Home-3B time you could hope for is 8 seconds or a bit more. Some quick calculations show that a pop-up with an 8 second hang time has to be hit about 260ft high or over the top of a 17 storey office building. Not saying it couldn't ever be done, but awfully hard. At a MLB game the other day, I counted the hang times (I know, but the physics of stuff like this is interesting to me) of several really high pop-ups and none even got to 6 seconds.

I get your point, but I think you've eliminated a few key factors. First, the runner is leading off, and likely already headed somewhat toward home. Second the runner doesn't have to make it ALL the way back to 3rd to be safe - just has to be close enough so that he can't be thrown out after it's caught.

So consider a "normal" short fly to right - a speedster could easily sprint home and get back close enough to 3rd that he couldn't be thrown out by the right fielder.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

HUH?

If the ball is caught the runner has to retouch or be out on appeal. Why would it be an advantage to run to the next base and back? Or did you not understand what I said in the post (So if the fly is caught and you need to tag the run was not legally scored so you can retreat).

Not sure what you don't understand. If the ball is caught, the runner is safely standing on 3rd. If the ball is not caught, he's scored. So his tactic worked (assuming this is the proper interp of the rule... of which, I'm still not convinced.)

[greymule]

(assuming this is the proper interp of the rule... of which, I'm still not convinced.)

I'm not convinced, either, but I can think of two plays on which I'd want to rule differently, though the same principle is involved.

Play 1. Runner on 3B breaks for home on a suicide squeeze. The batter missed the signal and swings, hitting a high pop in the infield. The runner's momentum takes him to the plate, but after he touches he scrambles back toward 3B and is most of the way there when the ball drops untouched and fair. The runner slides back into 3B.

Play 2. Same but the batter hits a soft liner that F9 charges and has a chance to catch. The runner, after touching home, retreats toward 3B for a few steps and then F9 traps the ball. The runner, not sure whether the ball was caught, continues back to 3B and then learns the ball was trapped.

I'm confident that the run should score in Play 2, and since Play 1 is the same in principle, the run should score there, too. However, I admit that if Play 1 happened to me, I'd probably keep the runner at 3B (and find out later that I had erred).

[hit4power]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I get your point, but I think you've eliminated a few key factors. First, the runner is leading off, and likely already headed somewhat toward home. Second the runner doesn't have to make it ALL the way back to 3rd to be safe - just has to be close enough so that he can't be thrown out after it's caught.

So consider a "normal" short fly to right - a speedster could easily sprint home and get back close enough to 3rd that he couldn't be thrown out by the right fielder.

I did think about the leading off part, but for the sake of argument lets give the runner a walking lead of 10-12 feet. When he reaches home at full speed I figure it will take him at least 10-12 feet to come to a stop, reverse, and start sprinting back to third. And if he only needs to be with 10-12 feet of third base when the ball is caught and thrown, then he still ran 60yds round trip and it still took him 8+ seconds. You make a good point about a pop-up on the right side - I suppose it could take a full second after the catch to fire the ball over to 3B, so maybe a 7 second hang time would be enough for a really fast runner to pull this off. That's still a ball hit around 220ft. high.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by hit4power

I did think about the leading off part, but for the sake of argument lets give the runner a walking lead of 10-12 feet. When he reaches home at full speed I figure it will take him at least 10-12 feet to come to a stop, reverse, and start sprinting back to third. And if he only needs to be with 10-12 feet of third base when the ball is caught and thrown, then he still ran 60yds round trip and it still took him 8+ seconds. You make a good point about a pop-up on the right side - I suppose it could take a full second after the catch to fire the ball over to 3B, so maybe a 7 second hang time would be enough for a really fast runner to pull this off. That's still a ball hit around 220ft. high.

Again, you're forgetting the time it takes to throw the ball to 3rd... insignificant if this popup is to SS ... but significant if it's deep 1B or shallow RF near the line. Plus - Grey's suicide squeeze is a PERFECT example of how this might come into play.