When is "too late?"

[New Blue]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I don't know if I would have forced them to stick with their blunder. Unlike the situation I presented, no one is in jeopardy.

It's not like you asked them their favorite color... "Blue, no, red, AHHHHH!!!!"

So the effect in this case is to be cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril? Is that true in all rule sets?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Here is what it is.

Both teams have all day to figure out their response should they be asked the question. There are only two possible answers and the person RESPONSIBLE for informing the umpire of that PREDETERMINED decision should know which answer is to be offered.

As an umpire, we have a responsibility to BOTH teams and are not there to protect the ones that are lacking in the intelligence it takes to pick a or b.

Instead of blaming the umpire for not being that RESPONSIBLE individual's guardian angel, the team should be talking to the idiot who made the mistake and remember, it was THEY who selective that person to deliver the message.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by New Blue

So the effect in this case is to be cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril? Is that true in all rule sets?

Pretty much. Especially in YSISF rules.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Dave,
Agree, nothing has happened. That being said, is that an adequate and proper answer to the white team HC if he starts to complain?

The substitution comparison is a good one. Again, let me state for the record I am not looking to force a coach to do something that he either did not intend to do or can't legally do regarding substitutions. Good line-up card/substitution management on the part of the PU dictates that we repeat the change to the coach to make sure that is the change that what he wants, BEFORE we report it to the official scorer or the other team. But like your sitch, there is a defined point where the sub (or the intentional walk) is official.

Another comparison might be when a coach has a "result of the play" option
that could occur on an IP or a catcher's obstruction sitch.
Now, unlike my sitch, "stuff has happened." But again the question is, once the coach indicates his choice, can he change it?

The difference between your situation and mine is that there is a rule that explicitly tells me the status of that batter, who has now instantly become a batter-runner by being awarded 1B. The rules clearly dictate what happens in this specific situation, and I'm obligated to enforce them as written.

In your case, however, there is nothing in the ASA rule book that covers a "proper" coin toss. Do you flip it with your thumb? Toss it from your hand? Who calls it?

Should there be something written in stone from ASA? No, of course not, and I don't believe there ever should be. Use good judgment out there. If they immediately correct their mistake, I'm not going to force them to stick with the first thing they said.

Besides, doing so could come back to bite us. If a runner from the visiting team overslides the base and you initially call "safe," then call the runner out on a tag, I guaran-damn-tee you the "away" coach is going to have a few words with you about sticking with the first thing you said.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The difference between your situation and mine is that there is a rule that explicitly tells me the status of that batter, who has now instantly become a batter-runner by being awarded 1B. The rules clearly dictate what happens in this specific situation, and I'm obligated to enforce them as written.

In your case, however, there is nothing in the ASA rule book that covers a "proper" coin toss. Do you flip it with your thumb? Toss it from your hand? Who calls it?

Should there be something written in stone from ASA? No, of course not, and I don't believe there ever should be. Use good judgment out there. If they immediately correct their mistake, I'm not going to force them to stick with the first thing they said.

Besides, doing so could come back to bite us. If a runner from the visiting team overslides the base and you initially call "safe," then call the runner out on a tag, I guaran-damn-tee you the "away" coach is going to have a few words with you about sticking with the first thing you said.

As I said in an earlier reply, "For all I know I could have been 100% wrong." However I do not think for a minute that I did not "use good judgement out there." Something went askew. I had to make a decision at that moment (without having knowledge of any ASA recommended procedure or interp to guide me) using judgement that I felt would be fair to BOTH teams. I don't think you'd get any argument from coaches that a large percentage of the time being home team provides them a distinct advantage.

I think that perhaps at some point, it would not be a bad idea at all for ASA to have a paragraph somewhere in the rule book, the rules supplement, or the clinic guide, that lays out the proper procedure for a coin flip. I mean heck, they sell the darn ASA flipping coins.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

As I said in an earlier reply, "For all I know I could have been 100% wrong." However I do not think for a minute that I did not "use good judgement out there." Something went askew. I had to make a decision at that moment (without having knowledge of any ASA recommended procedure or interp to guide me) using judgement that I felt would be fair to BOTH teams. I don't think you'd get any argument from coaches that a large percentage of the time being home team provides them a distinct advantage.

KJ, I hope you know that my comment about "good judgment" was not meant to be a slight in any way. I would think that my comments on here would show that I'm not one to give cheap shots across the bow (unless you play the piano). It's merely a reminder to us all that sometimes, rules and procedures are intended to be written documentation of common sense when it comes to fair play.

Could you force them to stick with their initial utterance? Sure, and I think that everyone is completely aware of the concept of "home team advantage." They've had an entire lifetime up until that moment to determine what they should say when they win the coin toss.

However, I don't think that it's out of the question to give a simple, calm verification of "away?" It's quite obviously the coach had a massive brain fart, and I'm not going to allow the coin toss to set the tone of the rest of the game. Nor do I believe that allowing a coach to verify their decision is in any way unfair to the opposing team.

That being said, it's still largely situational. If they realize their mistake after we're already walking away, I'm telling that coach that it's too late.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

I think that perhaps at some point, it would not be a bad idea at all for ASA to have a paragraph somewhere in the rule book, the rules supplement, or the clinic guide, that lays out the proper procedure for a coin flip. I mean heck, they sell the darn ASA flipping coins.

Maybe, but we'll see. I never thought ASA would ever spell out different ways of altering a bat, nor did I think they would ever publish a "safety guideline" in the rule book.

And yet they did!