When is "too late?"

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Rules Supplement
32. Intentional Walk (Slow Pitch)
......"and the intentional walk starts by the defensive team notifying the plate umpire of their intent."

Sorry, DC...too late.
Nice job on not allowing them to reverse their decision to issue the intentional walk.
Not much different than them informing you of a substitution, and you've entered it on your lineup card and/or informed the official scorer/opposing team.

Somewhat similar sitch last weekend in a 12u tournament. Coin flip, red team is heads, coin comes up heads, I ask red team what is their choice, red HC asks one of his two captains "what do we want to be home or away?" Captain#1 says "Away." Look of horror comes over red HC's face as he glares at capt.#1, who then says.."no, no, I meant home, we want to be home."
Red HC looks at me (still in shock), and I say, "OK, red team is the away team and will be batting first. White, you're home. Coaches, let's get them out there, have a good game."
Red HC then says, "Come on ump, you know she made a mistake." My reply, "Coach, all I do know is that you get a choice when you win the flip, her choice when asked by you was AWAY. You get one opportunity to chose, not two."
Coaches will say and ask the darndest things.

I don't know if I would have forced them to stick with their blunder. Unlike the situation I presented, no one is in jeopardy.

It's not like you asked them their favorite color... "Blue, no, red, AHHHHH!!!!"

[Stu Clary]

Sorry, KJ, but but in my opinion that's a case of Over Officiatiating.

[NCASAUmp]

Anyway, thanks for the input, guys. I've never had a pitcher try to undo an intentional walk. Usually, they drag out the process so much when deciding whether or not to do it, once they finally decide to do it, by golly, they're going to do it!

And since their announcement of intentionally walking the batter automatically made him a batter-runner, I did not feel right in allowing them to hit the "undo" button.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

Sorry, KJ, but but in my opinion that's a case of Over Officiatiating.

Stu,
Absolutely a fair point. And I am not by nature anywhere close to being an OOO....it's just not my style.

Here was the thing though, it was a tourney elimination game. What would I have done if I had let the red team change their choice, and the white team HC complained? That was the one thing thing that came to my mind when it became obvious that the red team captain had blundered.

I guess if I had let the red team change their choice, and the white HC disagreed, he always could have lodged a protest with the TD.

I'm not trying to make a case here for my decision as to how I dealt with the sitch as being the "right way" to handle it. For all I know, I could have been 100% dead wrong. But I did have to make a decision on the spot. This wasn't about looking for a nit to pick.

Being as how I can't find anything (yet) in either the ASA Rule Book, Case Book, or Umpire's Clinic Manual covering the proper procedure for coin flips; the question I'll throw out to the board is....what should we do if there is some kind of mess-up during a coin flip? What is the best/proper way to handle it?
Opinions please. Citations/references if you have any that are pertinent.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

What is the best/proper way to handle it?
Opinions please. Citations/references if you have any that are pertinent.

I think that there's no "proper" way, as there's no rules here. But if you want references, I can tell you that thousands of football referees have had a 6th grader say, "We want to kick off" and corrected them "Are you sure you don't want to defer?" Several times a season. I don't think you can be faulted for what you did - like you say, you had to decide on the spot.

But as to your worry about a protest, exactly what rule would they win this protest by? Does it actually say anywhere that the first word uttered by any player on the coin-flip-winning side is binding? If anything, the girl's utterance was her answer TO HER COACH when he asked her what SHE wanted. You never got an answer from the coach. (Honestly, I'm not sure I'd have enforced a coach for saying it wrong either... but you at least have a ready-made fix with the girl saying it).

[NCASAUmp]

Not to mention the fact that at this point, nothing has happened. No one has stepped up to bat, no plays have been made, no pitches have been delivered.

If a coach comes up to me during the game and says, "Blue, I want to enter #24 into the game. Wait, I mean #25," I'm not going to force him to put #24 into that spot and then substitute #25 in for #24.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Not to mention the fact that at this point, nothing has happened. No one has stepped up to bat, no plays have been made, no pitches have been delivered.

If a coach comes up to me during the game and says, "Blue, I want to enter #24 into the game. Wait, I mean #25," I'm not going to force him to put #24 into that spot and then substitute #25 in for #24.

Dave,
Agree, nothing has happened. That being said, is that an adequate and proper answer to the white team HC if he starts to complain?

The substitution comparison is a good one. Again, let me state for the record I am not looking to force a coach to do something that he either did not intend to do or can't legally do regarding substitutions. Good line-up card/substitution management on the part of the PU dictates that we repeat the change to the coach to make sure that is the change that what he wants, BEFORE we report it to the official scorer or the other team. But like your sitch, there is a defined point where the sub (or the intentional walk) is official.

Another comparison might be when a coach has a "result of the play" option
that could occur on an IP or a catcher's obstruction sitch.
Now, unlike my sitch, "stuff has happened." But again the question is, once the coach indicates his choice, can he change it?

[umpirebob71]

I would agree with the statement that the girls answered the coaches question, not yours. That would be my out with the other coach, should he complain.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Dave,
Agree, nothing has happened. That being said, is that an adequate and proper answer to the white team HC if he starts to complain?

The substitution comparison is a good one. Again, let me state for the record I am not looking to force a coach to do something that he either did not intend to do or can't legally do regarding substitutions. Good line-up card/substitution management on the part of the PU dictates that we repeat the change to the coach to make sure that is the change that what he wants, BEFORE we report it to the official scorer or the other team. But like your sitch, there is a defined point where the sub (or the intentional walk) is official.

Another comparison might be when a coach has a "result of the play" option
that could occur on an IP or a catcher's obstruction sitch.
Now, unlike my sitch, "stuff has happened." But again the question is, once the coach indicates his choice, can he change it?

The difference between your situation and mine is that there is a rule that explicitly tells me the status of that batter, who has now instantly become a batter-runner by being awarded 1B. The rules clearly dictate what happens in this specific situation, and I'm obligated to enforce them as written.

In your case, however, there is nothing in the ASA rule book that covers a "proper" coin toss. Do you flip it with your thumb? Toss it from your hand? Who calls it?

Should there be something written in stone from ASA? No, of course not, and I don't believe there ever should be. Use good judgment out there. If they immediately correct their mistake, I'm not going to force them to stick with the first thing they said.

Besides, doing so could come back to bite us. If a runner from the visiting team overslides the base and you initially call "safe," then call the runner out on a tag, I guaran-damn-tee you the "away" coach is going to have a few words with you about sticking with the first thing you said.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think that there's no "proper" way, as there's no rules here. But if you want references, I can tell you that thousands of football referees have had a 6th grader say, "We want to kick off" and corrected them "Are you sure you don't want to defer?" Several times a season. I don't think you can be faulted for what you did - like you say, you had to decide on the spot.

But as to your worry about a protest, exactly what rule would they win this protest by? Does it actually say anywhere that the first word uttered by any player on the coin-flip-winning side is binding? If anything, the girl's utterance was her answer TO HER COACH when he asked her what SHE wanted. You never got an answer from the coach. (Honestly, I'm not sure I'd have enforced a coach for saying it wrong either... but you at least have a ready-made fix with the girl saying it).

Good point.
The red part....an even better point.

[New Blue]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I don't know if I would have forced them to stick with their blunder. Unlike the situation I presented, no one is in jeopardy.

It's not like you asked them their favorite color... "Blue, no, red, AHHHHH!!!!"

So the effect in this case is to be cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril? Is that true in all rule sets?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by New Blue

So the effect in this case is to be cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril? Is that true in all rule sets?

Pretty much. Especially in YSISF rules.