Tag Ups - Time Play not a Force Out

[Canary]

Okay guys I'm not a umpire so don't scream at me for this.

From the ASA Rule book:

K. Tag-Ups. When a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball
and returns in an attempt to retouch, this is considered a time play and
not a force out. When the appeal is the third out, all runs scored in
advance of the appealed runner and prior to the legal appeal count.

Is this saying, you have to tag a runner when they try to come back after a caught fly ball?

Does a "time play" dictate only the base needs to be tagged, or does it imply the runner must be tagged?

Because we have always tagged the base "only".

[NCASAUmp]

Hey, Canary!

I appreciate your honesty here, and I'll answer your question.

The term "tag-up" refers to the runner, not the fielder, touching the base at the appropriate time. On a caught fly ball, all runners must touch the base they started from after the fly ball is first touched. If they leave before the ball is first touched and do not re-touch the base, they are subject to appeal.

You're looking at Rules Supplement #1, which is where you need to be. Look up a little higher and read B (Live) and C (Dead). If the runner is properly appealed by doing a live ball or dead ball appeal, the runner is out.

Appealing a runner leaving a base too soon is a timing play, which means that the umpires need to pay attention to WHEN the appeal is made if it becomes the third out. If the appeal is made BEFORE a runner (or runners) crosses home plate, the run(s) will not count. If the appeal is made AFTER a runner (or runners) crosses home plate, the run(s) WILL count.

This is different from, say, an appeal made on a runner for missing a base they were forced to advance to, resulting in the third out. Instead, that is a force play. When the third out is the result of a force out, no runs may score.

Does that clear things up any?

[JEL]

Originally Posted by Canary

Okay guys I'm not a umpire so don't scream at me for this.

From the ASA Rule book:
K. Tag-Ups. When a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball
and returns in an attempt to retouch, this is considered a time play and
not a force out. When the appeal is the third out, all runs scored in
advance of the appealed runner and prior to the legal appeal count.

Is this saying, you have to tag a runner when they try to come back after a caught fly ball?

Does a "time play" dictate only the base needs to be tagged, or does it imply the runner must be tagged?

Because we have always tagged the base "only".

The key is in the last sentence. This (tag-up) is an appeal play. The last sentence tells you that any runs scored BEFORE the appeal will count (assuming third out). There is where the "timing" issue comes in.

Tagging the base is an appeal. Tagging the runner will get the out as well. If you tag either to make the third out BEFORE a runner crosses home, that run won't count.

This rule is really telling us that a tag-up appeal is not a force out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by JEL

The key is in the last sentence. This (tag-up) is an appeal play. The last sentence tells you that any runs scored BEFORE the appeal will count (assuming third out). There is where the "timing" issue comes in.

Tagging the base is an appeal. Tagging the runner will get the out as well. If you tag either to make the third out BEFORE a runner crosses home, that run won't count.

This rule is really telling us that a tag-up appeal is not a force out.

Also note, it is the time of the appeal, not the time of the ruling.

[Canary]

Okay. So one can deduct, the reason for stipulating a time-play over a forced-out was to clarify how runs across home plate are counted.

In a time-play, runners tagging home plate before the appeal count as a run. If it is was considered a forced out then they do not count.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Canary

Okay. So one can deduct, the reason for stipulating a time-play over a forced-out was to clarify how runs across home plate are counted.

In a time-play, runners tagging home plate before the appeal count as a run. If it is was considered a forced out then they do not count.

I think (s)he's got it!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Canary

Okay. So one can deduct, the reason for stipulating a time-play over a forced-out was to clarify how runs across home plate are counted.

In a time-play, runners tagging home plate before the appeal count as a run. If it is was considered a forced out then they do not count.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[Snocatzdad]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

This is different from, say, an appeal made on a runner for missing a base they were forced to advance to, resulting in the third out. Instead, that is a force play. When the third out is the result of a force out, no runs may score.

Does that clear things up any?

As an aside, So with R1 on third R2 on first, 2 outs, BR hits fair ball to RF (not caught) and R2 sprints past 2B (misses bag) and arrives at 3B safely, R1 crosses home. Play ends and defense appeals R2 missing 2B. Is that a force not a timing play and R1's run does not count?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

As an aside, So with R1 on third R2 on first, 2 outs, BR hits fair ball to RF (not caught) and R2 sprints past 2B (misses bag) and arrives at 3B safely, R1 crosses home. Play ends and defense appeals R2 missing 2B. Is that a force not a timing play and R1's run does not count?

That's correct. Since R2 was forced to advance to 2B, it's a force play, not a timing play. No runs score.

[Canary]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

That's correct. Since R2 was forced to advance to 2B, it's a force play, not a timing play. No runs score.

If R2 was already on 2nd, and the batter hit a double. Runner on third goes home, and the runner on second goes home, but misses third. Would it be a simple issue of tagging the base on a time play, and would the run count. Even if it was a third out.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Canary

If R2 was already on 2nd, and the batter hit a double. Runner on third goes home, and the runner on second goes home, but misses third. Would it be a simple issue of tagging the base on a time play, and would the run count. Even if it was a third out.

If there's no runner on 1B at the start of the play, then that's correct. In this sitch, R2 would not be forced to advance to 3B. The appeal, in this case, is a timing play.

[Canary]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If there's no runner on 1B at the start of the play, then that's correct. In this sitch, R2 would not be forced to advance to 3B. The appeal, in this case, is a timing play.

So the R1 run would count, even though they were touch out order. Would that be considered as a R2 passing R1?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Canary

So the R1 run would count, even though they were touch out order. Would that be considered as a R2 passing R1?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Could you clarify your situation?

[Canary]

R1 @ 3B
R2 @ 2B
2 outs
BR hits....

R1 goes home
R2 goes home, but misses third.
An appeal on 3B and the R2 is out. A time-play.
However, does the run count?
If this is a time-play, then the R1 run would count???

Sitch #2:
R1 @ 2B
R2 @ 1B
2 outs
Br Hits ... a tripple

R1 goes home (the lead runner), but misses 3B
R2 goes home with a clean run.

An appeal at 3B, and R1 is out.
Since R2 actual completed the bases before R1, does the run count? or is it considered as R2 has passed R1?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Canary

R1 @ 3B
R2 @ 2B
2 outs
BR hits....

R1 goes home
R2 goes home, but misses third.
An appeal on 3B and the R2 is out. A time-play.
However, does the run count?
If this is a time-play, then the R1 run would count???

Sitch #2:
R1 @ 2B
R2 @ 1B
2 outs
Br Hits ... a tripple

R1 goes home (the lead runner), but misses 3B
R2 goes home with a clean run.

An appeal at 3B, and R1 is out.
Since R2 actual completed the bases before R1, does the run count? or is it considered as R2 has passed R1?

No run can score after the third out is made. There are situations where runs that score before the third out is made don't count.
One is if the BR doesn't safely reach first or any runner is forced out. Another is if a proceeding runner is called out on appeal.

Your first situation is called a time play because the determinant is whether R1 scored before R2 was called out. It doesn't apply any exception.

Your second situation R2 is not deemed to have passed the runner and is not out (which would matter if there were less than two outs). But no runner can score behind a runner who is appealed out for the third out. So the run does not score.
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