Is there a hole in 8-7-J

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

Based on what rule or definition? By definition the batter-runner stay a batter-runner until they reach first base, at which time they become a runner, or they have been retired. It is true you can't send the BR back to the batter position, but that is not our only option. Whenever we have interference and the BR is not called out we place them on 1st base. So we don't have to send them back to bat.

Once you kill the ball on the INT call, that places the BR on 1B, that player becomes a runner. Read Rule 1.

I don't agree. The rule says a double play not a play on the BR. The defense could be trying to turn a 4-2-5 double play. We can't assume that the double play includes a play at 1st.

But you can assume an unlikely attempt at a double play on the opposite side of the diamond? From F4? Okay, granted that could be a possibility, but I would contend that the umpire has really got to have a TWP-like imagination to even consider it without additional known quantifiers.

I would agree if you said we could not apply 8-2-K if no play at 1st was anticipated. This rule clearly stays "an attempt to complete the play on the batter-runner". What makes 8-7-J Effect not applicable is that the only additional out we can get is the trailing runner. The BR has not become a runner at this time, so we can't get them out. And since the BR is not a runner, there is no trailing runner. So 8-7-J Effect doesn't apply.

So, they way I see it, if R3, prior to being declared out, interferes with F4 and there was no play on the BR at 1b, then we can only get 1 out.

Ah, yeah, that is sort of the point of the rule. The 2nd out is NOT automatic. There has to be a probable play to call the out.

8-2-K does not apply because there was no attempt to complete the play on the batter runner. 8-7-J Effect does not apply because the BR is not a Runner.

I definitely see a hole in the rule. Maybe that's not the intent, but by the strictest definition of the terms runner and batter-runner and then applying those terms to rules 8-2-K and 8-7-J Effect, we definitely can't get two outs on the offered play.

Disagree.