Is there a hole in 8-7-J

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How did R3 interfere? Was R3 already out at the time of the INT? This is important as that would take the BR out of the equation.

True. In this scenario R3 was not out on the interference.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you want to be technical, B4 becomes a runner the moment you kill the ball on the INT call. You cannot send the BR back to the B position, so you must award the BR 1B which, by rule definition, makes that player a runner.

Based on what rule or definition? By definition the batter-runner stay a batter-runner until they reach first base, at which time they become a runner, or they have been retired. It is true you can't send the BR back to the batter position, but that is not our only option. Whenever we have interference and the BR is not called out we place them on 1st base. So we don't have to send them back to bat.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you don't believe part of the play included completing a play on the BR, than I don't believe you can apply 8.7.J.Effect.

I don't agree. The rule says a double play not a play on the BR. The defense could be trying to turn a 4-2-5 double play. We can't assume that the double play includes a play at 1st. I would agree if you said we could not apply 8-2-K if no play at 1st was anticipated. This rule clearly stays "an attempt to complete the play on the batter-runner". What makes 8-7-J Effect not applicable is that the only additional out we can get is the trailing runner. The BR has not become a runner at this time, so we can't get them out. And since the BR is not a runner, there is no trailing runner. So 8-7-J Effect doesn't apply.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No and yes. See above.

So, they way I see it, if R3, prior to being declared out, interferes with F4 and there was no play on the BR at 1b, then we can only get 1 out. 8-2-K does not apply because there was no attempt to complete the play on the batter runner. 8-7-J Effect does not apply because the BR is not a Runner.

I definitely see a hole in the rule. Maybe that's not the intent, but by the strictest definition of the terms runner and batter-runner and then applying those terms to rules 8-2-K and 8-7-J Effect, we definitely can't get two outs on the offered play.