verbalizing the count

[NCASAUmp]

In all seriousness, I've always been taught to never tell a batter he has "no balls, two strikes."

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In all seriousness, I've always been taught to never tell a batter he has "no balls, two strikes."

I only umpire girls fast pitch. Oh also, thanks for the advice on not putting weight on my thighs when getting set on the bases. I set up like you said and had no problems getting into position to make a call on the bases when a girl was stealing. Before I must of had to stand up first and then start moving into postion. One little change made all the difference in the world. Dave

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In all seriousness, I've always been taught to never tell a batter he has "no balls, two strikes."

And, that used to be the ASA standard as taught by the old NUS. But the new ASA NUS had a different direction.

More recently, that has been revised, and was the subject of an approved, restated, and required mechanic; I believe in 2006 (?). We were directed that a) that prior standard was never put in writing, and therefore was not a standard, and that b) the manual direction to "give the count" meant to give the full count in all cases. Since we verbalize one ball, two balls, three balls, no strikes, one strike, and two strikes, in any and all combinations, we were directed to also verbalize no balls; without regard to the possibility that it was the set up line for any number of jokes or issues.

Since then, and to minimize issues, I say "Our count is no balls, two strikes", and that has effectively eliminated any discussion that I either insulted the batter, or set myself up for "Did you say you have no balls??", et al.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And, that used to be the ASA standard as taught by the old NUS. But the new ASA NUS had a different direction.

More recently, that has been revised, and was the subject of an approved, restated, and required mechanic; I believe in 2006 (?). We were directed that a) that prior standard was never put in writing, and therefore was not a standard, and that b) the manual direction to "give the count" meant to give the full count in all cases. Since we verbalize one ball, two balls, three balls, no strikes, one strike, and two strikes, in any and all combinations, we were directed to also verbalize no balls; without regard to the possibility that it was the set up line for any number of jokes or issues.

Surprisingly, despite having gone to 3 local clinics, one state clinic and the NUS just this year alone (and having done similar in the previous years), this was never discussed. However, I have seen a number of umpires who have risen up the ranks who, when giving the count, will state "no balls, two strikes."

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Since then, and to minimize issues, I say "Our count is no balls, two strikes", and that has effectively eliminated any discussion that I either insulted the batter, or set myself up for "Did you say you have no balls??", et al.

Well, fortunately for me, I only do SP, so we have a 1-1 count that negates any of this. However, if I do senior or masters games, I do say, "the count is no balls, two strikes," or I will just hold up my left hand in a fist, then hold up my right with two fingers and say, "two strikes." I'm a bit surprised that neither of the NUS I went to in the past two years ever addressed this, despite the fact that this was part of our drills.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ncasaump

well, fortunately for me, i only do sp, so we have a 1-1 count that negates any of this.

:d

[SamG]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I will just hold up my left hand in a fist, then hold up my right with two fingers

Speaking as a fan, I don't understand how the left is the "balls" and the right is the "strikes". Even from the stands, I'm picturing how that looks to someone FACING the PU. From someone in that position, the strikes are on the left and the balls on the right... since you would verbally say balls then strikes, it looks wrong to me.

Did run into an PU at a couple tournaments this year who did it as a number... 1 & 2 was "twelve". 3 & 0 was "thirty". It was very distinctive. I just don't remember what he did for "no balls".

[umpirebob71]

I've been told that the reason we indicate how many strikes with the right hand is because we signal strike with the right hand. It makes sense to me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan, I don't understand how the left is the "balls" and the right is the "strikes". Even from the stands, I'm picturing how that looks to someone FACING the PU. From someone in that position, the strikes are on the left and the balls on the right... since you would verbally say balls then strikes, it looks wrong to me.

I believe someone else has already mention call a strike with right hand, indicate a strike with the same. Of maybe, it is for the same reason we all read from left to right, so we understand. Not much is more annoying than an umpire who uses the wrong hands. I've seen teams go crazy over this.

Did run into an PU at a couple tournaments this year who did it as a number... 1 & 2 was "twelve". 3 & 0 was "thirty". It was very distinctive. I just don't remember what he did for "no balls".

Yeah, I've done this, but only with close communication with catcher or batter. It works if they understand. If you get a silly look, just repeat the count in a manner they can understand.

BTW, because we all understand the number of balls is announced first followed by the number of strikes, it is not uncommon for an umpire to respond to a request for the count simply with numbers and not identifiers (i.e., one-two, three-one, zero/ohh-two, etc.).

[RadioBlue]

Right or wrong, for several years I've verbalized 0-2 by saying, "Two strikes. Oh-two!" It's quick, non-offensive, and not likely cause for someone to pop off with a verbal comment.

As for the reasoning behind showing the count with strikes on the right hand ... I was taught many years ago that was so the scoreboard operator (who is behind the umpire) would see the count the same order it is represented on the scoreboard.

[wadeintothem]

What came first the scoreboard or the count?

And why the hell is the clicker backasswards then!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

R ... I taught many years ago that was so the scoreboard operator (who is behind the umpire) would see the count the same order it is represented on the scoreboard.

I seem to remember someone posting (maybe on this board) about an umpire who used the opposite hands for the count so the pitcher could see the count in the correct order!

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Well, fortunately for me, I only do SP, so we have a 1-1 count that negates any of this.

You'd be amazed at the number of SP umpires in my area who ignore this fact and consider the count after the first pitch 1-0 or 0-1 when it's supposed to be 2-1 or 1-2.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

You'd be amazed at the number of SP umpires in my area who ignore this fact and consider the count after the first pitch 1-0 or 0-1 when it's supposed to be 2-1 or 1-2.

So there is never a walk or strikeout in their games?

[wadeintothem]

The current proper mechanic is "No balls two strikes"

You dont personalize it - "She has___ He has__"

You DO verbalize the balls when announcing the count.

So long as you dont personalize it, you shouldnt (at last 99% of the time) get the giggles people or offended people.



I do not prefer the way Atl steve does it... I consider that unnecessary verbiage.

Originally Posted by SamG

Did run into an PU at a couple tournaments this year who did it as a number... 1 & 2 was "twelve". 3 & 0 was "thirty". It was very distinctive. I just don't remember what he did for "no balls".

Admittedly I do this when talking to batter / catcher quickly giving the count to just them...for example sometimes the catcher just before the signal will ask the count and I'll quickly say "2 strikes/ you got twentytwo" or whatever" I wouldnt announce the count that way though.

[Paul L]

Any communication that reasonably can be expected to convey the count to the players and coaches works for me. I started to describe my own practices, but it got so long, complicated, and boring that I decided to spare y'all. They do include both holding up a left fist and two fingers on a right hand and saying "no balls, two strikes" and just holding up the right hand and saying "oh-two" or "two strikes". I've only been formally evaluated once in five years and don't recall whether this issue was addressed.

I will say that I only use a double-digit number, like "eleven", when I'm wearing my hat backwards or my shinguards outside my pant legs, neither of which has ever happened.