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Secondly, I, as stated adamantly in an earlier thread, am of the mindset that the goal of umps/refs is to get the call right, not to worry about whos call it is or who has priority. And in that thread, I was basically bashed by everyone on this board for having that sentiment. All the umps kept saying "this is softball not (fill in a differnet sport) 1 ump cant overrule another once 1 ump makes a call..." Thirdly, I was trying to impy in the OP that it was the BU who wound up making the final call, thus it was the PU initially making a call one way, one team (rightfully) complaining, and the PU asked the BU if he had something different, BU makes the opposite, of PU, call and that call stands. Note the bolded portion of your post, that is exactly what happen in the 1st sit in my OP. Fourthly, I was just asking if either of the 2 situations in the OP were proper or if 1 ump was out of line by the letter of the ASA code, not trying to "mine the rulebook" Fifthly, in regard to the underlined portion of your post, the ump already made his call. Why would he change it after someone said something like "are you sure?" Im not sure if you understood what I wrote, or if Im not understanding what you wrote, but as I comprehend it, you are asking me to appeal a call to the ump who made said call. |
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Basically, one umpire cannot step in on his own and reverse the call of another. An umpire can make a call, then confer with his partner if he so chooses. His partner can offer any additional information he may have, but ONLY the umpire who made the original can change or reverse it. It's up to him. He doesn't have to or he can if he wants to, but he is the only one that can change it! Try to imagine the fun we could have if this wasn't the case. Close play at the plate in a tight ball game. Plate umpire calls the out. Base umpire steps in and says, "Wait a minute- I think he was safe!". Plate umpire says, "No we wasn't!". Teams begin to argue either way. Neither umpire will budge. Chaos ensues... Umpires can seek additional input from the other umpires, but there is a protocol and procedure to follow in doing that. If the other umpire isn't asked first, he really needs to keep his mouth shut and stay out of it! Quote:
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If the umpire clearly saw what he needed to see to make the call, and is sure of what he saw, then he should NOT go to his partner for help. If he had it, then he had it. Stick with it! But if he was blocked out on the play, knows he might have missed something, wasn't looking where he should have been looking, was horribly out of position, had a really poor angle or anything else that might lead to some doubts, he should gladly go to his partner if asked. There's a procedure for that, too. If the coach has a legitimate question, like something regarding one of the above examples, he needs to: Request time; Wait until it is granted; GO TO THE UMPIRE THAT MADE THE CALL; Make it clear why you feel that the umpire may have missed something or why his partner might have additional information. If it was just a close play and you didn't like the call, that is no reason for the umpire to go for help. That is just fishing for a second opinion because you didn't like the first one! If that is the case, the umpire should not entertain your request. You need to have some concrete reason for asking, something beyond, "I wish the call had gone the other way". If you go to the umpire that didn't make the call first, he should refrain from commenting on the play and send you right to the umpire that did make the call. A good umpire will usually know if he might have missed something. If he thinks he did, he should have no problem with checking. If he is sure that he didn't, he can tell you to forget it! |
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I was talking to dakota, he, among others on the board, like to not read what is written, make assumptions, and start going off on tangents.
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thank you. |
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Speaking of not reading what was written, I told you the same thing about the ruling. In previous postings, you've claimed to umpire games, yet your lack of knowledge on some of the basics is astonishing.
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Tom |
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I actually had this debate recently whereby a coach was saying (fairly vigourously) by rule that me and my partner could not confer because a judgement call is not "appealable". He also said that the other coach could not even ask about it because the call wasnt protestable.
Obviously the layman's usage of the terms"appeal" does cause them confusion as they misread rules. If an umpire thinks that he is missing a part of the puzzle to make a call that his partner may well be able to provide, it is entirely appropriate in many instances for an umpire to go to his partner. Because of the nature of some calls and/or the positioning of partners at certain times, it would be inappropriate to go to them because they do not have a credible vantage. In those instances, you are actually throwing your partner under the bus if you cannot stand firm on your call. I think UMPIRE training and experience will let you know when your partner can provide credible (i.e. "saleable") input.
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ASA, NCAA, NFHS Last edited by wadeintothem; Mon Sep 14, 2009 at 09:59am. |
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
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What happened in the second case of your OP is the plate umpire saw that he did not have a good view of the play, saw that his partner was in position with a good view, and gave the call up to him. Whether or not this is good practice is debatable, but it is allowed. It can work well between umpires who are very accustomed to working together.
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Scott It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it. |
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It it my understanding that the calling umpire always makes the final call.
It was explained to me that even in the case of a protest, where the UIC is called in, that after deliberation, the UIC should inform the calling umpire of the ruling, AND that it is entirely up to the calling umpire whether or not to reverse the call, even if the UIC has clearly communicated to the calling umpire that the call was wrong. The takeaway is that even the UIC will not make the "corrected" call. Of course, if the calling umpire refused to apply the correct call that would be a career decision. Proper procedure is after the conference between the umpire team, that the calling umpire should have issued the reversed call. That being said, it seems like the OP is asking an informed question, but one that would not dictate the ultimate outcome.
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Tony |
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