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Originally Posted by steveshane67
First off, I was on the offensive team, not the defensive team.
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Duly noted- and irrelevent to the situation.
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Originally Posted by steveshane67
Secondly, I, as stated adamantly in an earlier thread, am of the mindset that the goal of umps/refs is to get the call right, not to worry about whos call it is or who has priority. And in that thread, I was basically bashed by everyone on this board for having that sentiment. All the umps kept saying "this is softball not (fill in a differnet sport) 1 ump cant overrule another once 1 ump makes a call..."
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The whole notion that one umpire cannot overrule another's call is something spelled out in "The Forgotten Chapter" of the rule book, otherwise known as "Rule 10- Umpires". This concept will be found in every single baseball or softball rule book for any association or sanctioning body.
Basically, one umpire cannot
step in on his own and reverse the call of another. An umpire can make a call, then confer with his partner if he so chooses. His partner can offer any additional information he may have, but ONLY the umpire who made the original can change or reverse it. It's up to him. He doesn't have to or he can if he wants to, but he is the only one that can change it!
Try to imagine the fun we could have if this wasn't the case. Close play at the plate in a tight ball game. Plate umpire calls the out. Base umpire steps in and says, "Wait a minute- I think he was safe!". Plate umpire says, "No we wasn't!". Teams begin to argue either way. Neither umpire will budge. Chaos ensues...
Umpires can seek additional input from the other umpires, but there is a protocol and procedure to follow in doing that. If the other umpire isn't asked first, he really needs to keep his mouth shut and stay out of it!
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Originally Posted by steveshane67
Thirdly, I was trying to impy in the OP that it was the BU who wound up making the final call, thus it was the PU initially making a call one way, one team (rightfully) complaining, and the PU asked the BU if he had something different, BU makes the opposite, of PU, call and that call stands. Note the bolded portion of your post, that is exactly what happen in the 1st sit in my OP.
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This might be splitting hairs, but the base umpire isn't really making any ruling at all here. He should be telling his partner what he saw- IF ASKED- and then it's up to the plate umpire to change the call or not. It's still his call and he's the only one that should be changing it.
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Originally Posted by steveshane67
Fourthly, I was just asking if either of the 2 situations in the OP were proper or if 1 ump was out of line by the letter of the ASA code, not trying to "mine the rulebook"
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It was proper IF the umpires followed the guidelines noted above.
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Originally Posted by steveshane67
Fifthly, in regard to the underlined portion of your post, the ump already made his call. Why would he change it after someone said something like "are you sure?" Im not sure if you understood what I wrote, or if Im not understanding what you wrote, but as I comprehend it, you are asking me to appeal a call to the ump who made said call.
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Well, you can always ask- and the umpire can always say no!
If the umpire clearly saw what he needed to see to make the call, and is sure of what he saw, then he should NOT go to his partner for help. If he had it, then he had it. Stick with it!
But if he was blocked out on the play, knows he might have missed something, wasn't looking where he should have been looking, was horribly out of position, had a really poor angle or anything else that might lead to some doubts, he should gladly go to his partner if asked.
There's a procedure for that, too. If the coach has a legitimate question, like something regarding one of the above examples, he needs to: Request time; Wait until it is granted; GO TO THE UMPIRE THAT MADE THE CALL; Make it clear why you feel that the umpire may have missed something or why his partner might have additional information.
If it was just a close play and you didn't like the call, that is no reason for the umpire to go for help. That is just fishing for a second opinion because you didn't like the first one! If that is the case, the umpire should not entertain your request. You need to have some concrete reason for asking, something beyond, "I wish the call had gone the other way".
If you go to the umpire that didn't make the call first, he should refrain from commenting on the play and send you right to the umpire that did make the call.
A good umpire will usually know if he might have missed something. If he thinks he did, he should have no problem with checking. If he is sure that he didn't, he can tell you to forget it!