How to "call" a ball not caught?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

I had a similar sit happen to me while i was playing baseball, in LF, slide feet first to snag a shallow pop up, I definitely caught the ball, everyone in the stands, the batter, and R1 knew I caught the ball, the ump didnt say anything, that should have been the 3rd out, as Im running in, I see a lot of players on both teams just standing around, so i flipped the ball to 2nd, and the ump called a force out.

As a player, it would have been nice to know that the ump didnt think it was a catch so I wouldnt have been screwed if the runner and BR actually ran. thus, when I ump, I always yell no catch on a close play to "aid" the fielders and runners. I dont know if its proper by the rule book/mechanics, but I feel its the right thing to do. (especially since I only do SP)

I used to call "no catch," but I now feel that it could be confused for "catch!" I now give a solid "safe" signal with no verbal.

If it's close, the players should be listening for the "out" call anyway. If they don't hear it, then that should be a big clue.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I used to call "no catch," but I now feel that it could be confused for "catch!" I now give a solid "safe" signal with no verbal.

If it's close, the players should be listening for the "out" call anyway. If they don't hear it, then that should be a big clue.

I agree. As a player, and the reason we do not call "fair", I was taught that you play until you hear the umpire. We all do not talk with the same dialect, inflections, drawl, accent, etc.

Remember a game in Richmond one year with runners at 1st & 2nd and a shot down the LF line. Umpire screams, "GOOD BALL" and everyone, offense and defense, stops dead in their tracks. This umpire couldn't understand why no one was running.

[Dutch Alex]

The sound of "Fair Ball" is kinda simmelair to "Foul Ball".
A "not caught fair hitted ball" is also not an action by a fielder, so a "Safe call" is unpropiat.
All we have to do is just point to fair territory with the right index-finger. THAT is the propper way to give a signal for fair hitted ball!

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

The sound of "Fair Ball" is kinda simmelair to "Foul Ball".
A "not caught fair hitted ball" is also not an action by a fielder, so a "Safe call" is unpropiat.
All we have to do is just point to fair territory with the right index-finger. THAT is the propper way to give a signal for fair hitted ball!

I would disagree. The OP said the ball short-hopped the SS as he was making a play. As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. In this situation, it's a "no catch." Everyone is best served by a "safe" signal.

In NCAA, we're taught to give a "safe" signal on a potential INT/OB call that we rule is neither. It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

... As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. {snap}

... It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

I agree that we must communcate what our ruling is. Pointing is the way to communicate that we indeed have a fair hitted ball.

There's no play on a runner, so a "SAFE" call is not to be given.
There is no difference in calling "a close no-catch" or "a fair hiited ball, down the line". So pointing fair, must be the propper way.

Maybe, just maybe, one can add a hand-signal to it, indicating a hop on the ground.

IMHO a SAFE-call, is not wanted. A verbal given call is asking for trouble!

[NCASAUmp]

Sander, are these the mechanics that were given to you by your organization in Europe? They're different from what we're instructed to do here in the US.

They're not wrong, they're just different.

And don't forget, guys, that pointing to the ground was the ASA signal for a trapped ball up until a couple years ago.

[Umpteenth]

I worked with a partner (PU) last night who wanted me (BU) to be able to completely focus on the baserunners. On any fly ball, he called either, "Catch!" or "On the ground!".

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Sander, are these the mechanics that were given to you by your organization in Europe? They're different from what we're instructed to do here in the US.

They're not wrong, they're just different.

And don't forget, guys, that pointing to the ground was the ASA signal for a trapped ball up until a couple years ago.

Dave, we follow ESF. That's the Europe Softball Federation. They use the rule set from the ISF. ISF is following the ASA rule set only a few years later... So it might be that in a couple a years we as well are yelling "SAFE" on a trapped ball. (I guess not) Shmuelg is using ESF as well in Israel.

I think the mechanic yelling "SAFE / No catch" is wrong, not only different.
Signaling "SAFE" looks to much on a baseball-machanic, IMO, so there's onter reason why I'm not willing to use that machanic. I'm a softball-ump. not a small-baller.

Background info on the latter:
ISF wants national federations (the most located in Europe) with a baseball and softball-devision to separate. I agree with that, although that's gonna cost a lot. Here in the Neth.'s softball brings in the most Euro's for our national federation; but the most money is spent by our baseball-devision... So ,for me, separate them!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I would disagree. The OP said the ball short-hopped the SS as he was making a play. As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. In this situation, it's a "no catch." Everyone is best served by a "safe" signal.

True, but I don't believe the signal is the issue. When a ball is put into play, the defense has people screaming for the ball here or there and the offense is screaming for the BR/Rs to run here or there. In many cases, very few are going to realize a complete verbal call. The offense has designated coaches to direct the runners (many of whom haven't the slightest idea how to coach) and defenders are not lacking in help from teammates. Step up and give a safe signal.

In NCAA, we're taught to give a "safe" signal on a potential INT/OB call that we rule is neither. It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea

Mike, I think that it is a good signal, as we communicate what we saw, even if everyone else saw it. And, for the record, we are communicating "no infraction", not "safe."

Would you consider pointing "fair" as over-officiating and redundant?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Mike, I think that it is a good signal, as we communicate what we saw, even if everyone else saw it. And, for the record, we are communicating "no infraction", not "safe."

Now think about it, Class. If you see INT, what do you do? ? ? Anyone? That's right, we hold up both arms with the palms facing forward and kill the play.

Okay, let's move onto the next situation. If you observe OBS, what do you do? Bueller, are you here for this one? Hello? Anyone else? That's correct, we extend our left arm to indicate a DDB. Can you repeat after me? Delayed-Dead-Ball. Very good, Class.

Now, let's step this up a notch. If there is some sort of interaction between an offensive player and a defensive player and you, as the umpire, determine there is no infraction, what do you need to do? C'mon, I know this is a hard one, but I know you all know the answer to this one. Anyone? Hmmmm......Okay, Class, let's look at it this way. If you are a player or coach or a spectator and you observe some level of interaction on the field between a runner and a fielder and the umpire makes no signal or call of any type, what do you have? Lil' Johnny, can you answer this without using that potty mouth of yours? Yes, Johnny, what do you have? What was that? That's correct, during that play there was...


NOTHING!
NO INFRACTION!


I'm sorry, Johnny, what was that last thing you said? Oh, my dear! Yes, Johnny, that's right, "not a ****ing thing" is, also, correct. Thank you.

Would you consider pointing "fair" as over-officiating and redundant?

Of course, not since it is an valid call. Something happened in which the players require a declaration as to whether continue or not.

And, BTW, Master Slick, it has not escaped many of us that your initials are BS, so watch your step or you will be back in the corner with that foul-mouthed, little ****, Johnny!

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea

Mike, I'm of the opinion that this is a good signal. Very much like the "play on" verbal in a different game. It lets those who need to know that you've seen "it" and you've got a nothing.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Mike, I'm of the opinion that this is a good signal. Very much like the "play on" verbal in a different game. It lets those who need to know that you've seen "it" and you've got a nothing.

Are you suggesting the "underswing of both arms" instead of the safe signal?

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

.... The offense has designated coaches to direct the runners (many of whom haven't the slightest idea how to coach) and defenders are not lacking in help from teammates. Step up and give a safe signal.

Why? Applying your philosophy to this situation no catch = no signal. Nothing has happened except the ball hitting the ground right? Fair/foul- same thing. Why signal fair?

The difference is where the "I got nothing" safe signal came from. I'm sure you have agreed with a college mechanic at some time on here, I just haven't been able to find it.