What's the call ?

reed2310 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 14, 2002, 01:30pm

Runner on second and one out. Batter K"s and f2 returns the ball to f1. The infield gathers in the circle to high five and the runner on second heads to her dugout on the first base side.F1 see's her and directs her fielders of the situation. The runner finally relizing it is only the second out stops and starts dancing btween 1st and 2nd due to the fact that her coaches are having a massive corinary to go back to her bag. At the same time the players are running to there positions and the pitcher is just waiting to make the throw. No fake being made by f1. My question is, is she not out.Ump says no because she was not trying to advane, she was confused so play ball. So we are penalized for the other team being confused ???

Gulf Coast Blue · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 14, 2002, 06:46pm

I've got an out on this play...........

See the ASA POE on the lookback rule........

Let me tell you about a bases loaded triple play where only one runner was legitimately tagged out..........grin

12U game, sacks juiced...........0 outs.........

Batter pops up to F4...........my partner and I echo........."IFF.......batters out....."

F4 DROPS the ball.........runners panic.........all take off...........F4 easily tags runner from 1st for 2nd out (I bang the out)......runner from 3rd scores......and runner from 2nd makes it to 3rd..........

Ball back to the pitcher and everthing settles down.......BUT......the runner on third decides she needs to go back to 2nd........WHY??...........I don't know......

But she does........wanders off the bag.........I turn......access the situation and bang her out too...........

Offensive coaches cannot figure what the heck is going on........I calmly explain it........and get some pretty big "Deer in the headlights" looks.......

I end it with........."Hey.....at least you scored a run!"..........grin

Joel

MichaelVA2000 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 15, 2002, 12:24pm

I agree with Gulf Coast Blue and would have an out also on the Look Back rule violation.

Michael

Larry Wolfe · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 15, 2002, 04:41pm

This really touches a nerve for me. I hate this delay but refuse to invoke the 20 second rule if I am the only ump to do so. Some of our older JO teams are playing 4 and 5 innings in 75 minutes.

I know it is not the technical rule but I would NOT allow the out in this situation as the defense was delaying the game and had in effect a timeout -- which would allow the runner to vacate the base to talk with her coach -- providing she creates no further game delay.

I really beleive ASA must add to the POE this tactic of game delay by the defense. Is a coach who is ahead gaining an advantage of not playing an additional inning that would otherwise be played before the time has expired?????? If the defense can congratulate each other after a good play, why shouldn't the offense be able to do the same after a good hit???? grin Most of us use the "locked box" to speed up the batters, so why not prohibit defensive celebration huddles!

[Edited by Larry Wolfe on Jul 18th, 2002 at 08:29 AM]

bluezebra · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 01:22am

If the high fives take only a few seconds, it's not a delay. And it DEFINITELY is NOT a time out. You cannot make up your own rules.

R2 is OUT as soon as she stepped off the base.

Bob

Larry Wolfe · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 08:58am

Bob, I am looking for perspective here, but is the catcher going out to the pitcher's circle a time out? Is the batter holding up their hand to get into the box a time out? Would you allow any play while the batter has their hand up? I referred to defensive huddles, not high fives. Preventive umpiring suggests that if the catcher goes to the pitcher we should call "time" just to prevent any problems developing. This is probably a local problem, but 10U are playing 7 innings in 75 minutes while good 18U are playing 4-5 innings in 75 minutes? Anyone else want to chime in. Maybe I am to sensitive to the huddle delays, but why should a team be allowed to slow the game down so much?

Wolfy

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 10:43am

I'm confused, Larry.

It sounds like you are looking for ways to speed up the game while at the same time allowing players to declare TIME for themselves to have a huddle.

Would I allow play to occur if the catcher walks out to the circle without requesting TIME and having me grant it? You bet (allowing exceptions for 10U or 12U who are still learning).

The players must REQUEST time out - they don't CALL time out - I do that.

The best way to speed up a game (IMO) is to set the tone yourself. At the end of a play, do you stroll leisurely back behind the plate or into positon on the bases, or do you jog? Between innings, are you ready and waiting for the battery to finish warmups or are you behind the fence getting a drink or chatting with a coach / fan?

Hustle the teams on and off the field between innings. Hustle the batters up to the plate. Set the tone. Pay as much attention to the ~1 minute limit between half-innings as the number of warmup pitches. Things will go much faster.

Larry Wolfe · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 12:17pm

You are right Tom, the players are calling time for themselves by goint out to the huddle and ignoring my request to "Play Ball" or Batter Up. My calling a ball or a strike generates a loud and animated protest from the penalized team's coach. And no, I do not waste game time myself, I am always waiting for the defense or a batter. We use a time-limit for league games and invitational tournaments. I introduced this topic looking for solutions -- short of calling balls and strikes or stronger measures and to determine if this is a perceived problem in other regions.
Wolfy

Dakota · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 01:41pm

What I do is...

1) Ask the defensive coach to hustle his team onto the field;
2) Instruct the catcher to call "balls in" even if she has taken NO warmups if the team has been taking its sweet time;
3) Call "batter up" both at the beginning of the half inning and if a batter is taking too much time, stepping out of the box, etc.
4) Ask the 3rd base coach to not take so much time with signs, etc.

The worst if has ever gotten with me is I have had to issue an "official warning" to the 3rd base coach that I will start calling strikes - it never came to actually calling the strikes, but I did take some lip from the coach about a hot date (I chose to ignore it, since the coach did speed things up).

Maybe it's not has bad here as you have.

Larry Wolfe · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 04:10pm

Tom, thanks! I also do all of the things you mention and have on occasion called a "strike" (only after repeated calls of "batter up". My problem is the offensive coach complaining (and rightly so) that his batter will get ready quicker but the defense is delaying the game with huddles. I guess I will have to call an occasional "ball" on the defense to make my point that the game should keep moving along. I have noticed this year that the pitcher don't want to step on the rubber until the batter is in the box and the batter wants to wait on the pitcher. I certainly know the proper rule calls to make to penalize delays but have been reluctant to make the call if others in my area do not make the call. My UIC has not been very supportive regarding this matter. I do not want a team to slow a game to 4 or 5 innings when they should be playing 6-7 innings in 75 minutes.

Maybe I perceive a bigger problem than there really is.