Force runner question - ASA

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wolraht

There was a second umpire waiting for another game to start witting right behind home plate in the stands watching when it happened. I walked over and asked him about it.

Little bit more detail. When the 3B player applied the tag, he had the ball in his throwing hand and tagged the runner with an empty glove. The runner was called out.

I wanted to ask the ump about that because a few weeks ago I applied a tag on a runner with an empty glove and was told I had to have the ball in glove to get the out.

Tagging a runner with an empty hand or an empty glove does not get an out. That's correct.

What I'm about to say is a REAL stretch, so don't flame me for going this route. It is REMOTELY possible that the umpire felt that the runner had interfered with the defense's ability to make a play on him or on another runner. That's not the call that I would make, but it's a remote shot. Did the umpire call "TIME!" or "Dead ball!" when the tag with the empty glove was made? Did the runner reach for the glove or hand at all?

Originally Posted by wolraht

I asked the ump why the runner in this situation was called out. He said the runner stepped back toward 2B when he was forced to go to 3B and that was why the out was called. The ump that made the call was between batters standing at the fence listening to this explanation and seemed to agree. He certainly didn't dispute the explanation if it was not the reason he made the call.

Of course he wouldn't dispute it. For starters, he doesn't want to get dragged into it, nor does he want to throw his fellow umpire under the bus. It's the same reason I have for not really wanting to go down this road.

Originally Posted by wolraht

The runner did not move outside the basepath. just back toward second. He was really trying to get the third baseman holding the ball long enough to not turn the double play, knowing there was no way he was making it to 3B safely.

Provided that is everything that happened, there is nothing wrong with that.

Bear in mind that I am not taking issue with you, or accusing you of lying or even misleading us (despite the fact that many other coaches and players have done that on this board in the past). It's a simple matter of the umpire involved not being present on this board to explain exactly what happened, coupled with the fact that what an umpire looks for on a play is completely and 110% different from what a player, fan or coach looks for. Players watch "bodies" on a play. They see that the throw beat the runner, or that the runner was closer to the base than the fielder. Umpires are looking at things that are much more subtle: positioning of the feet, how securely a ball is held in a glove or hand, where the hands are, the sound of the ball hitting the glove, or the glove swiping someone's uniform.

It's two totally different worlds, coexisting on the same field. Usually, that coexistence is peaceful, even though it's a tense peace.

[wadeintothem]

On the off chance your question hasnt been answered in whatever it is thats being discussed above...

Thats a terrible call.

As you correctly state, the rule applies to a batter runner - not a runner.

I cant quote a rule for you because there is no such rule; the umpire pulled it out of their @$$.

Not sure how you could argue it other than protest it, though.

[wolraht]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

On the off chance your question hasnt been answered in whatever it is thats being discussed above...

Thats a terrible call.

As you correctly state, the rule applies to a batter runner - not a runner.

I cant quote a rule for you because there is no such rule; the umpire pulled it out of their @$$.

Not sure how you could argue it other than protest it, though.

Protesting it with a solid understanding of the misapplied rule is the only route I can see taking here. Hence my asking questions about the rules

[Skahtboi]

To recap, without all of the fluff:


Runner must be tagged with the ball to record an out. (The ball can be held in the glove or the hand, but whichever is holding the ball must actually tag the runner.)

A runner may retreat to avoid a tag. A batter-runner may not.

[jmkupka]

I've had a related incident happen a handful of times, always resulting in a furious DC:

A tag play where the fielder's forearm or elbow is the only thing that contacts the runner (the glove at the end of that arm, holding the ball, never makes contact with the runner).

In all cases it was clearly a "safe" in my judgement, seems to be a black and white call, there must be leather contacting the runner, no?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I've had a related incident happen a handful of times, always resulting in a furious DC:

A tag play where the fielder's forearm or elbow is the only thing that contacts the runner (the glove at the end of that arm, holding the ball, never makes contact with the runner).

In all cases it was clearly a "safe" in my judgement, seems to be a black and white call, there must be leather contacting the runner, no?

Yes.

I've made this call many times as well, and it rarely goes over well. All you can do is sell the hell out of it.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I've made this call many times as well, and it rarely goes over well. All you can do is sell the hell out of it.

I was taught only to give the safe signal, and no verbal in a situation where the runner was touched with an empty glove. Do you verbalize when you have this?

Reason I ask, is I had the same sitch in a coed rec game, where the male 3B touched female R1 heading to 3B (can't remember how many was on) with just an empty glove while cocking to throw to 2B. I only signaled safe, and didn't verbalize it. He ended up not throwing because R2 was pretty much already at 2B. I didn't call time right away, because R1 was starting to walk away from 3B, when the 3B coach yelled at her to get back on the bag, which she did. I called time, and everyone looked at me, "where's the out call on the runner (R1)?" I signaled and verbalized "safe, tagged with an empty glove". That ended that. (In retrospect, I'm shocked SOMEONE in coed rec had the common sense to tell the runner to get back on the bag!)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I've had a related incident happen a handful of times, always resulting in a furious DC:

A tag play where the fielder's forearm or elbow is the only thing that contacts the runner (the glove at the end of that arm, holding the ball, never makes contact with the runner).

In all cases it was clearly a "safe" in my judgement, seems to be a black and white call, there must be leather contacting the runner, no?

If the ball is being held in the glove, yes.

[wolraht]

From the perspective of this one player\coach...

I wouldn't argue that call. If you can get a runner out by hitting them with your elbow, why not your shoulder, or your butt, or your foot? where does it end? Slippery slope there. Tag with leather or with the ball. Totally agree.

Of course, then it gets into the "What you saw wasn't what I saw argument" Dave mentioned earlier. And then you guys are the official enforcers of the rules on the field and you call what you call.

Hah, I just wish you guys would admit a mistake every once in a while.

Had a lady ump in our tournament last year. I was playing 1B. shortstop turns a double play (by a good two steps literally) with 1 out and starts running off the field, along with all 12 other guys on the field (including base coaches and the two runners.)

She calls the guy safe at first, to the astonishment of everyone on the field, and the crowd on the first base side of the field.

She later admits to my catcher that she was in a bad position, didn't see it, and blew the call.

Why not just admit it when the bad call is made and fix it?

(That's pretty much a rhetorical question. I know you guys can't really speak for anyone other than yourself )

[wolraht]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Tagging a runner with an empty hand or an empty glove does not get an out. That's correct.

I agree with this.

What I'm about to say is a REAL stretch, so don't flame me for going this route. It is REMOTELY possible that the umpire felt that the runner had interfered with the defense's ability to make a play on him or on another runner. That's not the call that I would make, but it's a remote shot. Did the umpire call "TIME!" or "Dead ball!" when the tag with the empty glove was made? Did the runner reach for the glove or hand at all?

The umpire had not called the play dead in any way as after the out on the runner going to 3rd the ball was thrown to 2B for the double play, despite the runners stalling to prevent that. Runner didn't try to knock the ball out, as it was already in the throwing hand of the player (not that he would have tried anyway. we all remember A. Rod trying that a year or two ago in a playoff game. )

Of course he wouldn't dispute it. For starters, he doesn't want to get dragged into it, nor does he want to throw his fellow umpire under the bus. It's the same reason I have for not really wanting to go down this road.

I know, you're right. you guys never want to engage in a lively debate!

Bear in mind that I am not taking issue with you, or accusing you of lying or even misleading us (despite the fact that many other coaches and players have done that on this board in the past). It's a simple matter of the umpire involved not being present on this board to explain exactly what happened, coupled with the fact that what an umpire looks for on a play is completely and 110% different from what a player, fan or coach looks for. Players watch "bodies" on a play. They see that the throw beat the runner, or that the runner was closer to the base than the fielder. Umpires are looking at things that are much more subtle: positioning of the feet, how securely a ball is held in a glove or hand, where the hands are, the sound of the ball hitting the glove, or the glove swiping someone's uniform.

It's two totally different worlds, coexisting on the same field. Usually, that coexistence is peaceful, even though it's a tense peace.

I understand all that man. Just want you to know that I am totally not screwing with you and don't want to argue stuff at all. I hate arguing. I always lose.... maybe I should argue with someone other than my wife?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wolraht

The umpire had not called the play dead in any way as after the out on the runner going to 3rd the ball was thrown to 2B for the double play, despite the runners stalling to prevent that. Runner didn't try to knock the ball out, as it was already in the throwing hand of the player (not that he would have tried anyway. we all remember A. Rod trying that a year or two ago in a playoff game. )

Then as much as I hate saying it, it sounds like the umpire booted the call. I just wanted to be absolutely sure before making that statement (despite the fact that it was my initial reaction).

Originally Posted by wolraht

I know, you're right. you guys never want to engage in a lively debate!

Of course not! We've got another game after this one!

Originally Posted by wolraht

I understand all that man. Just want you to know that I am totally not screwing with you and don't want to argue stuff at all.

I hear ya there. Tell you what... If you want to get some insight into an umpire's world, check out this book. Granted, it's baseball, but the cultures are very similar. Even if you aren't interested in the "insight," it's still an amazing read.

Originally Posted by wolraht

I hate arguing. I always lose.... maybe I should argue with someone other than my wife?

Can't help ya there!

[wolraht]

Thanks for the input bro. And the book recommendation. Looks like an interesting read. Have to put it on my list.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wolraht

Thanks for the input bro. And the book recommendation. Looks like an interesting read. Have to put it on my list.

No problem.

And definitely check out the book. VERY much worth the read. For $17, it's a bargain.