Force runner question - ASA

[Skahtboi]

To recap, without all of the fluff:


Runner must be tagged with the ball to record an out. (The ball can be held in the glove or the hand, but whichever is holding the ball must actually tag the runner.)

A runner may retreat to avoid a tag. A batter-runner may not.

[jmkupka]

I've had a related incident happen a handful of times, always resulting in a furious DC:

A tag play where the fielder's forearm or elbow is the only thing that contacts the runner (the glove at the end of that arm, holding the ball, never makes contact with the runner).

In all cases it was clearly a "safe" in my judgement, seems to be a black and white call, there must be leather contacting the runner, no?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I've had a related incident happen a handful of times, always resulting in a furious DC:

A tag play where the fielder's forearm or elbow is the only thing that contacts the runner (the glove at the end of that arm, holding the ball, never makes contact with the runner).

In all cases it was clearly a "safe" in my judgement, seems to be a black and white call, there must be leather contacting the runner, no?

Yes.

I've made this call many times as well, and it rarely goes over well. All you can do is sell the hell out of it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I've had a related incident happen a handful of times, always resulting in a furious DC:

A tag play where the fielder's forearm or elbow is the only thing that contacts the runner (the glove at the end of that arm, holding the ball, never makes contact with the runner).

In all cases it was clearly a "safe" in my judgement, seems to be a black and white call, there must be leather contacting the runner, no?

If the ball is being held in the glove, yes.

[wolraht]

From the perspective of this one player\coach...

I wouldn't argue that call. If you can get a runner out by hitting them with your elbow, why not your shoulder, or your butt, or your foot? where does it end? Slippery slope there. Tag with leather or with the ball. Totally agree.

Of course, then it gets into the "What you saw wasn't what I saw argument" Dave mentioned earlier. And then you guys are the official enforcers of the rules on the field and you call what you call.

Hah, I just wish you guys would admit a mistake every once in a while.

Had a lady ump in our tournament last year. I was playing 1B. shortstop turns a double play (by a good two steps literally) with 1 out and starts running off the field, along with all 12 other guys on the field (including base coaches and the two runners.)

She calls the guy safe at first, to the astonishment of everyone on the field, and the crowd on the first base side of the field.

She later admits to my catcher that she was in a bad position, didn't see it, and blew the call.

Why not just admit it when the bad call is made and fix it?

(That's pretty much a rhetorical question. I know you guys can't really speak for anyone other than yourself )

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I've made this call many times as well, and it rarely goes over well. All you can do is sell the hell out of it.

I was taught only to give the safe signal, and no verbal in a situation where the runner was touched with an empty glove. Do you verbalize when you have this?

Reason I ask, is I had the same sitch in a coed rec game, where the male 3B touched female R1 heading to 3B (can't remember how many was on) with just an empty glove while cocking to throw to 2B. I only signaled safe, and didn't verbalize it. He ended up not throwing because R2 was pretty much already at 2B. I didn't call time right away, because R1 was starting to walk away from 3B, when the 3B coach yelled at her to get back on the bag, which she did. I called time, and everyone looked at me, "where's the out call on the runner (R1)?" I signaled and verbalized "safe, tagged with an empty glove". That ended that. (In retrospect, I'm shocked SOMEONE in coed rec had the common sense to tell the runner to get back on the bag!)

[wolraht]

you know what, after you said that, it makes me wonder if the ump did intend for the runner going to third to be out or not. i coulda sworn i heard him call OUT when the tag was applied, but its possible the OUT call could have been the throw to 2B. You guys don't have any obligation to tell a runner to get back on the bag before he walks off the field if he is safe.

woulda been nice to get that explanation instead of the BS about retreating to 2B being the cause.

who knows though. too late now.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

I was taught only to give the safe signal, and no verbal in a situation where the runner was touched with an empty glove. Do you verbalize when you have this?

Reason I ask, is I had the same sitch in a coed rec game, where the male 3B touched female R1 heading to 3B (can't remember how many was on) with just an empty glove while cocking to throw to 2B. I only signaled safe, and didn't verbalize it. He ended up not throwing because R2 was pretty much already at 2B. I didn't call time right away, because R1 was starting to walk away from 3B, when the 3B coach yelled at her to get back on the bag, which she did. I called time, and everyone looked at me, "where's the out call on the runner (R1)?" I signaled and verbalized "safe, tagged with an empty glove". That ended that. (In retrospect, I'm shocked SOMEONE in coed rec had the common sense to tell the runner to get back on the bag!)

I've never been taught one way or the other on this. If someone has a better way, I'm all ears. Well, eyes...

I usually wait a second to allow the defense to realize their screw-up. Once I see that the defense isn't going to make another attempt on the runner, I sell the safe call.

A lot of times, it happens when F4 scoops up a grounder and attempts to tag the runner coming from 1B. I still allow the defense the chance to correct the mistake, but they almost never do. Once they've attempted their double play, I then call "safe at 2, safe/out at 1." The only reason I don't call it out right away is because, well, I want to focus on what's going to be the tighter play of the attempted double-play.

This may be wrong, and maybe I'm not describing it well. However, that's what I do. I get some crap for it for the players, but only from the standpoint of "I made the tag, blue!"

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wolraht

you know what, after you said that, it makes me wonder if the ump did intend for the runner going to third to be out or not. i coulda sworn i heard him call OUT when the tag was applied, but its possible the OUT call could have been the throw to 2B. You guys don't have any obligation to tell a runner to get back on the bag before he walks off the field if he is safe.

woulda been nice to get that explanation instead of the BS about retreating to 2B being the cause.

who knows though. too late now.

Obligation? I consider it more the responsibility of the coaches to tell their runner to get back on the base, but I repeat to a runner leaving the base that they were safe. Most of the time, the runner just hangs around the base and asks when the play is over.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I've never been taught one way or the other on this. If someone has a better way, I'm all ears. Well, eyes...

May be this helps. Pg 246-247 Ump manual.

As the play develops, move to get an unobstructed view, read the play, hesitate slightly, and then make the call.

They use call in this section to mean something audible. They use signal for arm movement.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald

May be this helps. Pg 246-247 Ump manual.

As the play develops, move to get an unobstructed view, read the play, hesitate slightly, and then make the call.

They use call in this section to mean something audible. They use signal for arm movement.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really apply to this specific situation. The question isn't how to get the best angle on the play, but how to make the call when a fielder tags with an elbow or forearm and not the ball (or glove that's holding the ball). How does one make it clear that no real tag was actually made? You could call, "no tag," but that could be confused for "tag," so that's no good. In the past, some would simply call out, "no!" but that's been done away with.

I say let the play unfold just a little further, allow enough time for the defense to correct their mistake, then make the call. If it happens as the first part of a quick double-play attempt with an immediate subsequent call, I wait for the play on the BR to finish, call "safe at 2," then make the call for the play at 1B.

Originally Posted by ronald

May be this helps. Pg 246-247 Ump manual.

As the play develops, move to get an unobstructed view, read the play, hesitate slightly, and then make the call.

They use call in this section to mean something audible. They use signal for arm movement.

Thanks. Maybe that'll help with the unknowing innocents who play coed wreck.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

You're asking umpires... to help you... pick an argument with an umpire? Call me crazy here, but that doesn't sound inherently wrong to you? Would you go up to a cop and ask him how to make another cop look like a fool in court?

Maybe he's not necessarily trying to pick an argumentMaybe he's just trying to know the right answer..

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Unfortunately, that doesn't really apply to this specific situation. The question isn't how to get the best angle on the play, but how to make the call when a fielder tags with an elbow or forearm and not the ball (or glove that's holding the ball). How does one make it clear that no real tag was actually made? You could call, "no tag," but that could be confused for "tag," so that's no good. In the past, some would simply call out, "no!" but that's been done away with.

I say let the play unfold just a little further, allow enough time for the defense to correct their mistake, then make the call. If it happens as the first part of a quick double-play attempt with an immediate subsequent call, I wait for the play on the BR to finish, call "safe at 2," then make the call for the play at 1B.

How bout "NO BALL"?


but I guess someone would pick up in that and follow up with some obscene comment....

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Maybe he's not necessarily trying to pick an argumentMaybe he's just trying to know the right answer..

Oh, I conceded that. I just wanted him to be clear on how it could be perceived. I did, in the end, answer his question, and I certainly hope he realizes I meant no offense.