Boo

[Snocatzdad]

I have a different BOO question. Assume a standard 1-9 lineup no dp/flex

Batter #4 comes up when #3 is suppossed to be up and completes an at bat at which point the DC notes the BOO.

If Batter #4 reached base then Batter #3 is declared out, Runners all return, and Batter #4 is up again.

If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up.

This seems confusing to me, I would think Batter #4 should be up again regardless of the result of her at bat, but the way I read ASA 7.2.D.2.Exception that places #5 up next.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

I have a different BOO question. Assume a standard 1-9 lineup no dp/flex

Batter #4 comes up when #3 is suppossed to be up and completes an at bat at which point the DC notes the BOO.

If Batter #4 reached base then Batter #3 is declared out, Runners all return, and Batter #4 is up again.

If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up.

This seems confusing to me, I would think Batter #4 should be up again regardless of the result of her at bat, but the way I read ASA 7.2.D.2.Exception that places #5 up next.

These are correct according to ASA rules. The point is that we do not take away outs. Any outs obtained during the incorrect at-bat will be kept, because we should not penalize the defense for the offense's mistake.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

These are correct according to ASA rules. The point is that we do not take away outs. Any outs obtained during the incorrect at-bat will be kept, because we should not penalize the defense for the offense's mistake.

Then, shouldn't #4 and #3 both be out, 2 outs not 1 out; as in "If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up."?

Do I remember correctly that this is only true in ASA?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Then, shouldn't #4 and #3 both be out, 2 outs not 1 out; as in "If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up."?

Do I remember correctly that this is only true in ASA?

I think what he was saying was that in the second scenario, B4 batted out of order (B3 was skipped) and was put out on the play. That'd be two outs.

I don't know what other associations have to say about this. Someone else will have to speak to that.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Then, shouldn't #4 and #3 both be out, 2 outs not 1 out; as in "If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up."?

Do I remember correctly that this is only true in ASA?

I agree with Cecil.

ASA 7.2.D.2

a. The player who should have batted is out.
b. Any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand.
c. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat.
d. If the batter declared out is the third out, the correct batter to lead off the next inning shall be the player who would have come to bat had the player been put out by ordinary play.
Exception:
If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat, and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.


NFHS, however, only takes one out in this situation. The at bat by the incorrect batter is 'negated'.

NFHS 7.2 Penalty #2:
When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the next pitch (legal or illegal), or prior to an intentional base on balls (S.P.), or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending: The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All outs stand and runners who were not declared out must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If a runner advances because of a stolen base , wild pitch, passed ball (F.P) or an illegal pitch (F.P.) while the improper batter is at bat, such advance is legal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

I have a different BOO question. Assume a standard 1-9 lineup no dp/flex

Batter #4 comes up when #3 is suppossed to be up and completes an at bat at which point the DC notes the BOO.

If Batter #4 reached base then Batter #3 is declared out, Runners all return, and Batter #4 is up again.

Correct

If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up.

Correct, for the BOO. #4 is also out, which would be the second out.

This seems confusing to me, I would think Batter #4 should be up again regardless of the result of her at bat, but the way I read ASA 7.2.D.2.Exception that places #5 up next.

Why? It isn't the defense's fault the wrong batter hit into an out. ASA may be the only one with this exception, but it makes all the sense in the world.

[Snocatzdad]

It makes sense now that I understand both players are out due to the "all outs stand" portion of the rule preceding the exception. I was confused reading the execption because it didn't specifically restate that the out on the OOO batter stands as well.

Is the "negate" term interpreted correct for NFHS in the post preceding? such that it would not be two outs for NFHS in this same situation? That's what my confusion is here, using terms like "negate" "skip" with "all outs stand" needs clarification IMO.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

It makes sense now that I understand both players are out due to the "all outs stand" portion of the rule preceding the exception. I was confused reading the execption because it didn't specifically restate that the out on the OOO batter stands as well.

Is the "negate" term interpreted correct for NFHS in the post preceding? such that it would not be two outs for NFHS in this same situation? That's what my confusion is here, using terms like "negate" "skip" with "all outs stand" needs clarification IMO.

I'm not sure how to map the terms. But your conclusion is right. ASA double play. Everywhere else, the correct batter is out on appeal.
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[AtlUmpSteve]

Let me muddy the water on this; there are three different rules out there on related plays. R1 is on 2nd, R2 on 1st with no outs, B3 supposed to bat, but B4 bats instead, and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. DC appeals BOO before the next pitch.

ASA ruling; keep all outs, so R2 out in force, B3 out on BOO, B4 out on the play. Three outs, B5 bats leadoff next inning.

NFHS ruling; keep all "OTHER" outs EXCEPT the incorrect batter, so R2 out on force, R1 returns to 2nd (advance negated), B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. Two outs, B4 bats (again) with R1 on 2nd.

NCAA ruling; negate all play, so R1 returns to 2nd, R2 returns to 1st, B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. One out, B4 now bats with R1 on 2nd and R2 1st.

Now, how can all three major associations have 3 different rulings on a basic rule? But, they do; and if the NCAA coach makes the appeal, it hurts the offended team!!

[argodad]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Let me muddy the water on this; there are three different rules out there on related plays. R1 is on 2nd, R2 on 1st with no outs, B3 supposed to bat, but B4 bats instead, and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. DC appeals BOO before the next pitch.

ASA ruling; keep all outs, so R2 out in force, B3 out on BOO, B4 out on the play. Three outs, B5 bats leadoff next inning.

NFHS ruling; keep all "OTHER" outs EXCEPT the incorrect batter, so R2 out on force, R1 returns to 2nd (advance negated), B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. Two outs, B4 bats (again) with R1 on 2nd.

NCAA ruling; negate all play, so R1 returns to 2nd, R2 returns to 1st, B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. One out, B4 now bats with R1 on 2nd and R2 1st.

Now, how can all three major associations have 3 different rulings on a basic rule? But, they do; and if the NCAA coach makes the appeal, it hurts the offended team!!

That's my favorite umpire trivia question for casual fans.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by argodad

That's my favorite umpire trivia question for casual fans.

When ASA first introduced this rule, I was sure it would be something I would never see.

First game of the year, first batter gets on, then B3 hits into a double play. An unbelievably alert coach brought the BOO to my attention and, sure enough, I had three outs on two pitches!

Love the ASA rule.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Let me muddy the water on this; there are three different rules out there on related plays. R1 is on 2nd, R2 on 1st with no outs, B3 supposed to bat, but B4 bats instead, and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. DC appeals BOO before the next pitch.

ASA ruling; keep all outs, so R2 out in force, B3 out on BOO, B4 out on the play. Three outs, B5 bats leadoff next inning.

NFHS ruling; keep all "OTHER" outs EXCEPT the incorrect batter, so R2 out on force, R1 returns to 2nd (advance negated), B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. Two outs, B4 bats (again) with R1 on 2nd.

NCAA ruling; negate all play, so R1 returns to 2nd, R2 returns to 1st, B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. One out, B4 now bats with R1 on 2nd and R2 1st.
Now, how can all three major associations have 3 different rulings on a basic rule? But, they do; and if the NCAA coach makes the appeal, it hurts the offended team!!

What would happen if the offensive coach discovered that his team batted out of order? Could he "appeal" before the next pitch? That would be to his advantage.

I don't do NCAA, but I think that if the coach discovered someone batting out of order during an AB, the correct batter could step in and assume the ball and strike count.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

What would happen if the offensive coach discovered that his team batted out of order? Could he "appeal" before the next pitch? That would be to his advantage.

Don't know about other assns, but in ASA only the defense may appeal BOO. (7.2.C.Effect)

I don't do NCAA, but I think that if the coach discovered someone batting out of order during an AB, the correct batter could step in and assume the ball and strike count.

I don't believe the BOO is actually a done-deal until the improper batter completes his/her turn at bat.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

What would happen if the offensive coach discovered that his team batted out of order? Could he "appeal" before the next pitch? That would be to his advantage.

No. Only if the OC discovers the error during the at bat.

I don't do NCAA, but I think that if the coach discovered someone batting out of order during an AB, the correct batter could step in and assume the ball and strike count.

That's true in all codes.