Mob at home plate?

[Tru_in_Blu]

This is tough one for me. Some of you have mentioned that the runner did not alter her path, but she seemed to sense a close play coming up. The catcher was in the base path, significantly up the line from the plate. The runner did not alter her course, did not crash into the catcher while on her feet, could not jump over the catcher since the catcher wasn't prone.

Literally a split second before the catcher has the ball, the runner apparently has already decided to go into a goofy head first dive. While she didn't veer left or right, or jump, she did take an alternate path to HP.

Since the runner wasn't on her feet at the time of the crash, this may absolve her of MC per NFHS rules 8-6-14 She remains on her feet and maliciously crashes into a defensive player. Malicious contact supersedes obstruction. Penalty follows.

2-35 is a bit less direct: "Malicious contact is an act that involves excessive force with an opponent."

So to me, MC would be a situation where the runner actually has time to recognize that the defensive player actually has the ball and is waiting to apply the tag, but yet the runner decides to try to bowl her over by running upright into the defender.

I didn't see that in this case.

As far as a wreck, if the catcher had been positioned out of the runner's path and then made an attempt to field the ball that was a bit off line, and then there was a collision, I'd say that qualifies.

NFHS 8-4-3-b, which I'm sure you're all familiar with:
Art 3 A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

b. a fielder not in possession of the ball or not making an initial play on a batted ball, impedes the progress of a runner or BR who is legally running bases. Obstructed runners are still required to touch all bases in proper order, or they could be called out on a proper appeal by the defensive team. Should an act of interference occur following any obstruction, enforcement of the interference penalty would have precedence.

As mentioned, that PU had a lot going on during that play. We have the benefit of slow motion and stop action. But live, that was tough. When I see the catcher squatting on the foul line with a runner bearing down on her and the throw is coming in, simply stated she is not in possession of the ball. Yes, that split second later she does, but the runner wouldn't be able to see that or react. Had there been a call for OBS, I couldn't argue against it.

Ted

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Literally a split second before the catcher has the ball, the runner apparently has already decided to go into a goofy head first dive. While she didn't veer left or right, or jump, she did take an alternate path to HP.

Through the catcher? No. Bad option.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blue

Since the runner wasn't on her feet at the time of the crash, this may absolve her of MC per NFHS rules 8-6-14 She remains on her feet and maliciously crashes into a defensive player. Malicious contact supersedes obstruction. Penalty follows.

On her feet, in the air, doing cartwheels, it doesn't matter. She still intentionally collided with the catcher with a lowered shoulder. By her own admission ON TAPE, she wanted to go through her. I could see it in the video of the play, and she admitted to it afterward. Don't know what else you need.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

2-35 is a bit less direct: "Malicious contact is an act that involves excessive force with an opponent."

So to me, MC would be a situation where the runner actually has time to recognize that the defensive player actually has the ball and is waiting to apply the tag, but yet the runner decides to try to bowl her over by running upright into the defender.

I didn't see that in this case.

And the runner admitted to intentionally running into the catcher. As for excessive force, I resubmit this picture from after the game. Don't think it was excessive force? Tell that to her parents who now have to drag her to the doc's office because some idiot runner decided to go all Japanese Game Show on her.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

As far as a wreck, if the catcher had been positioned out of the runner's path and then made an attempt to field the ball that was a bit off line, and then there was a collision, I'd say that qualifies.

NFHS 8-4-3-b, which I'm sure you're all familiar with:
Art 3 A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

b. a fielder not in possession of the ball or not making an initial play on a batted ball, impedes the progress of a runner or BR who is legally running bases. Obstructed runners are still required to touch all bases in proper order, or they could be called out on a proper appeal by the defensive team. Should an act of interference occur following any obstruction, enforcement of the interference penalty would have precedence.

And up until the point at which the catcher had the ball, I did not see the runner slow down or deviate. I would not have OBS.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

As mentioned, that PU had a lot going on during that play. We have the benefit of slow motion and stop action. But live, that was tough. When I see the catcher squatting on the foul line with a runner bearing down on her and the throw is coming in, simply stated she is not in possession of the ball. Yes, that split second later she does, but the runner wouldn't be able to see that or react. Had there been a call for OBS, I couldn't argue against it.

Ted

I never saw a slow motion version of this play, and I've got INT, MC, and an ejection.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well Dave, the PU didn't have the benefit of post game interviews, photos of players in slings, or instant replay.

Do we all have MC, out, ejection if the runner just as forcefully slid feet first into the catcher? And after the game the runner said she was trying to kick the ball out of the glove, and photos of players on crutches, and instant replay, et al?

One of the things I've tried to work on this season is the OBS call. I do a lot of lower level girls games and can call it on almost every base hit out of the infield on F3. Most times, though, the BR are content to simply run through the bag, like their coaches always tell them. If they're going to 2B, it's from 15' beyond 1B.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well Dave, the PU didn't have the benefit of post game interviews, photos of players in slings, or instant replay.

And neither did we at the beginning of this thread and I believe the consensus was INT.

Do we all have MC, out, ejection if the runner just as forcefully slid feet first into the catcher? And after the game the runner said she was trying to kick the ball out of the glove, and photos of players on crutches, and instant replay, et al?

As long as it was a legal slide, not a problem since it is permitted, by rule. This was neither legal or a slide.

I'll go here again. I don't think anyone is pointing a finger at the umpire here, just voicing what each poster probably would have done in this circumstance. As I posted, he is probably thinking "train wreck". Would I like to know what he thinks now? Yeah, not for an argument, but to find out what he saw.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well Dave, the PU didn't have the benefit of post game interviews, photos of players in slings, or instant replay.

Nor do I, but I've tossed out players for doing similar things that were more "subtle" than this (sliding into a bag with their foot at F4's knee-level, etc.).

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Do we all have MC, out, ejection if the runner just as forcefully slid feet first into the catcher?

No, because that's actually PART of the game.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

And after the game the runner said she was trying to kick the ball out of the glove, and photos of players on crutches, and instant replay, et al?

Of course not, because the runner didn't do anything flagrant enough to merit an ejection, unless she was obviously (and I do mean "obviously") trying to kick the fielder.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

One of the things I've tried to work on this season is the OBS call. I do a lot of lower level girls games and can call it on almost every base hit out of the infield on F3. Most times, though, the BR are content to simply run through the bag, like their coaches always tell them. If they're going to 2B, it's from 15' beyond 1B.

Ted

It's good that you've got something specific to work on. That's the mark of a good umpire, and I do commend you for that. However, in this case, I think an OBS call would be a difficult sell, as I never saw any deviation by the runner before the ball was in the catcher's possession. And even if you could somehow justify OBS in this sitch, it's still trumped by the malicious contact. There's a clear-cut difference between the example you're mentioning (feet first sliding) and what happened in the game (lowering the shoulder and going head first). I used to be a volleyball player, and I know the difference between lowering yourself for a head-first slide (the EXACT same as a volleyball dive) and lowering yourself to pound another player into the ground.