Mob at home plate?

[reccer]

An interesting sequence of pictures for your review. My crappy seats didn't allow me to see the play so I can't give you guys any additional info that you cant' glean from the pictures other than that the collision jarred the ball loose and it went to the backstop. There was no obstruction nor UC called on the play.

In one of the shots you can see the mob scene at home where the offense is telling runner to touch the plate. You think Blue had enough help to make the call?

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[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

An interesting sequence of pictures for your review. My crappy seats didn't allow me to see the play so I can't give you guys any additional info that you cant' glean from the pictures other than that the collision jarred the ball loose and it went to the backstop. There was no obstruction nor UC called on the play.

In one of the shots you can see the mob scene at home where the offense is telling runner to touch the plate. You think Blue had enough help to make the call?

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Not having been there and lacking a video, I really could not make a definitive decision, but my perception of what happened based solely on the photos, I'm ruling the runner out.

If the catcher had possession of the ball prior to the crash, IMJ that is not a slide when the runner leading with a shoulder.

If the catcher does not have possession of the ball prior to the crash, it is OBS, but the runner may not be out of trouble yet if I believe it was intentional as opposed to tripping and falling forward.

Again, JMO, based on the still photos provided

[IamMatt]

The first picture looks more like Greco-Roman wrestling than softball.

[ronald]

Here is the picture 374 PhotoReflect - Antonio Morano Photography

and guess what: catcher has the ball.

Ejection.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald

Here is the picture 374 PhotoReflect - Antonio Morano Photography

and guess what: catcher has the ball.

Ejection.

Speaking ASA, unless everyone had tripped on her own feet and accidentally bumped into each other... Yep. Out. Ejected. And going through the sequence of pictures, it looks like the catcher sure got knocked for a loop. She spent a bit of time on the ground, and here's what appears to be a picture of her after the game. Yes, injuries will happen, but this just furthers my suspicion that this was a BS play.

I also saw this picture. Great positioning.

[ronald]

They don't crouch like that in the majors but I have seen a lot of major league umps at that angle. Saw TS at the angle yesterday too when runner was rounding 3rd base.

[reccer]

Originally Posted by ronald

Here is the picture 374 PhotoReflect - Antonio Morano Photography

and guess what: catcher has the ball.

Ejection.

Blue, to be fair, that is a pic of the play just before the collision play. F2 has just caught a throw from outfield on a short fly.

On the play in question, base hit to center scored R1 and R2 is the colliding player. The throw was offline and up the 3rd base path.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by reccer

Blue, to be fair, that is a pic of the play just before the collision play. F2 has just caught a throw from outfield on a short fly.

On the play in question, base hit to center scored R1 and R2 is the colliding player. The throw was offline and up the 3rd base path.

That may be, but for that kind of contact, I'd probably still have an ejection for USC. If the catcher had the ball before the collision, I'd also have an out. If I knew for certain the coach told her to do it, the coach is going with her.

End of the game or not, it appears to me that the kind of contact shown by these pictures do not belong in softball, and the consequences should not be ignored. Having seen the pictures of the catcher after the game only strengthens my belief that the contact wasn't just a bump, but more of a football-like tackle.

[cloverdale]

this is exactly why we need to get any training for these situations...only been doing this for 4 yrs and never yet had a train wreck like this...runners running into half minded fielders but nothing malicious...train wreck is right and thanks to all those veteran umps that post here...this will help me to identify potential ejection plays...that was alot to take in on real time...

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by cloverdale

this is exactly why we need to get any training for these situations...only been doing this for 4 yrs and never yet had a train wreck like this...runners running into half minded fielders but nothing malicious...train wreck is right and thanks to all those veteran umps that post here...this will help me to identify potential ejection plays...that was alot to take in on real time...

But this is exactly what I was hoping to dispel with my previous post. What happened in the video is NOT what is known as a "trainwreck," this is a crash, which is malicious contact.

A trainwreck is when the ball, runner and fielder all arrive at the same time, and the players bump. No obstruction call, no interference call. Purely incidental. Everyone did what they were supposed to do, and, well, sh1t happens.

[ronald]

From ASA UIC clinic in 2006

SITUATION 13: B1 hits a grounder to F6 who fields the ball and makes an errant throw to F3, pulling F3 down the line towards home. B1 is running legally in the running lane and crashes into F3 a split second after F3 catches the throw. Both R1 and F3 fall to the ground and F3 tags R1 before reaching first base.

RULING: Since F3 had possession of the ball before contact and R1 had no time to alter their path before the collision, this is neither obstruction nor interference. This is what is commonly referred to as a “train wreck.” R1 is out on the tag.
Rule 8 Section 5B & Section 7B


This did not happen in the video. The catcher was on the line, the runner ran straight into the catcher who got the ball at least a split second before contact. The runner never slowed up, never moved to avoid the catcher. Cloverdale, I'm from Michigan: you have to represent better.

Whenever you see this play in the future, even if the catcher does not have the ball, the runner can not run through the defensive player. It is called malicious contact in Fed and flagrant contact in ASA. No ifs, and, or buts apply.

Train wreck happens when two objects (players in our situation) are going in two different directions and collide where there was no chance (at that precise moment) for the two objects to avoid each other (at that precise moment).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

This did not happen in the video. The catcher was on the line, the runner ran straight into the catcher who got the ball at least a split second before contact. The runner never slowed up, never moved to avoid the catcher.

I believe the entire key to the criticism rendered on this play is that the runner made no attempt to check up or legally slide. Leading with the shoulder AND HEAD is just an indication (verified by the player) that her intent was to crash into the catcher.

If there was any indication the runner tried to avoid a direct collision, I think some of us would probably had seen a "train wreck" scenario, and maybe even OBS had there been an obvious deviation by the runner prior to the ball reaching the catcher.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I believe the entire key to the criticism rendered on this play is that the runner made no attempt to check up or legally slide. Leading with the shoulder AND HEAD is just an indication (verified by the player) that her intent was to crash into the catcher.
.

Well put. Excellent wording. It is mine now too.

[BuggBob]

Looking at the video, we all pretty much agree MC, runner out and ejected. It looked to me as if a trailing runner scored when the catcher was on her butt. So the end result would have been one run in, one out and an ejection, and runner returned to last base touched (score then 1-0). That is as it should have been called. But can you imagine the HSS that would have ensued if that was the call made? The umpire crew would have been roasted. "Let the girls decide the game." would have been the mantra of the media and the parents. And if Sally-ram-jet was ejected would she be allowed to play in the next game? It would be interesting to know what the local umpires think of all this who-haa. I guess the little girls are tougher in Texas.

Interesting, in the baseball side of this forum is a video about a brawl during a Texas High School playoff game. Do they actually enforce the NFHS rules in Texas? Because looking at these two videos it sure don't look like they do to me.

HSS = Horizontal S**T Strom, you can't hide from an HSS.