Batter awarded 1st base?

[NCASAUmp]

Well, we're talking about high school varsity FP here. How many of you would make the same call on a 10U game?

You're lucky if the catcher can consistently get it back to the pitcher in the first place.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Well, we're talking about high school varsity FP here. How many of you would make the same call on a 10U game?

You're lucky if the catcher can consistently get it back to the pitcher in the first place.

10u tournament ball is the same as everything else IMO, and especially championship play.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

10u tournament ball is the same as everything else IMO, and especially championship play.

Tourney ball is, of course, different. But if you're calling the local 10U rec game, would you still make that call?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

[BuggBob]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

Sorry I disagree but, there is clearly a right call: ball four, catcher did not return the ball to the pitcher; and a clear wrong call: ignore the whole thing because you don't like the rule.

[greymule]

Make me ASA king for a day and gone is the rule that allows the offense to benefit by deliberately committing interference.

I still want to know whether a "ball" is awarded during a dead ball (e.g., after a foul) or after F2 throws to 1B in a mistaken attempt to get a putout on the BR.

BuggBob: You are of course correct that we cannot ignore even idiotic rules. In 10u rec, however, they're not paying you to make a shambles of the game. Are you going to call every illegal pitch in 10u rec? Is your strike zone going to be as the book defines it? Are you going to enforce the lookback rule according to the book? Are you going to let runners break for the next base on the throw to the mound, or are you going to call time out to end the chaos when the runners stop?

Incidentally, I can cite some rules that I would never call, partly because they're bad rules, partly because almost nobody knows them.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by greymule

Make me ASA king for a day and gone is the rule that allows the offense to benefit by deliberately committing interference.

I still want to know whether a "ball" is awarded during a dead ball (e.g., after a foul) or after F2 throws to 1B in a mistaken attempt to get a putout on the BR.

The rule applies any time the catcher does not throw the ball directly back to the pitcher with no runners on, except after a strikeout (can throw around), a put out (can throw around), or an attempted put out by the catcher.

Yes; after a foul ball that is retrieved by the catcher. Yes, a mistaken attempt is not an attempt (except in NCAA); there has to be someone to attempt to put out.

ASA 8.7-B, NFHS 6-3-2, NCAA 10-16 (NCAA does grant the added exception of the BR runs even if not entitled to run)

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by greymule

I still want to know whether a "ball" is awarded during a dead ball (e.g., after a foul) or after F2 throws to 1B in a mistaken attempt to get a putout on the BR.

On a dead ball I say no, how can you award anything that occurs during a dead ball?

On the 2nd question I would say if there was some type of legitimate confusion based on a call that the umpire had to make (check swing for example) then I say you have nothing, especially if the runner takes off as you first mentioned. Rules allow an umpire to correct this.

[greymule]

NCAA calls for a warning on the first offense (F2 not returning the ball to the pitcher) and ejection (!) on the second.

Batter hits a pop toward the 3B dugout. F2 and F5 give chase. F2 dives in a vain attempt to make the catch, and smothers the ball with her body. F2 pulls the ball out from under her and while still lying on the ground flips it to F5, who is standing a few feet away.

I want to see an umpire force in the winning run by calling a ball on that.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by greymule

NCAA calls for a warning on the first offense (F2 not returning the ball to the pitcher) and ejection (!) on the second.

Batter hits a pop toward the 3B dugout. F2 and F5 give chase. F2 dives in a vain attempt to make the catch, and smothers the ball with her body. F2 pulls the ball out from under her and while still lying on the ground flips it to F5, who is standing a few feet away.

I want to see an umpire force in the winning run by calling a ball on that.

Calls like that are not appreciated....

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

On a dead ball I say no, how can you award anything that occurs during a dead ball?

On the 2nd question I would say if there was some type of legitimate confusion based on a call that the umpire had to make (check swing for example) then I say you have nothing, especially if the runner takes off as you first mentioned. Rules allow an umpire to correct this.

You are off base with both of these comments.

After a foul ball, if the catcher retrieves it with no runners on base, throwing the ball to anyone other than the pitcher is an awarded ball; the rule says so.

On the second part, it frankly doesn't matter if the batter runs; the catcher may only legally play on a batter-runner. As to rules allowing an umpire correction, they ONLY apply if there was delayed or reversed call by an umpire; not if F2 was simply wrong, or confused by the batter (who is not a batter-runner by rule). Don't look to reverse calls or not apply the rules simply because the catcher was confused (or you don't agree with the rule).

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

You are of course correct that we cannot ignore even idiotic rules. In 10u rec, however, they're not paying you to make a shambles of the game. Are you going to call every illegal pitch in 10u rec? Is your strike zone going to be as the book defines it? Are you going to enforce the lookback rule according to the book? Are you going to let runners break for the next base on the throw to the mound, or are you going to call time out to end the chaos when the runners stop?

Incidentally, I can cite some rules that I would never call, partly because they're bad rules, partly because almost nobody knows them.

And that's basically what I was getting at. If I'm calling a purely rec game with small kids, I'm not going to go by the exact letter of the rulebook, and you'd be deluding yourself if you say you'd do otherwise. As long as the defense does not gain some sort of advantage and as long as the integrity of the game is preserved, I will not call it for small kids. If a coach wants to protest it, s/he may, and I'll let the league decide if they really want me to nitpick every rule on a 10U game.

Mind you, I don't call FP. I only call SP. However, for the first 4 years of my umpiring career, I called kids' games, ranging from age 9 through 14.

[wadeintothem]

A rules discussion is separate from an "officiating rec league / beer league" discussion IMO.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by greymule

Are you going to enforce the lookback rule according to the book? Are you going to let runners break for the next base on the throw to the mound,

Whatsa "mound"?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Whatsa "mound"?

A hill.

[ronald]

Gotta go with what Mike said "I did not see that, coach"