What Happened to Fourth Out thread?

[rwest]

What happened to the Fourth Out Redux thread? It appears to have been deleted.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Generally speaking, the only ones that can delete an entire thread are 1) the moderator, or 2) the thread originator. The moderator (Mick) would only do that if the thread became inappropriate.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Generally speaking, the only ones that can delete an entire thread are 1) the moderator, or 2) the thread originator. The moderator (Mick) would only do that if the thread became inappropriate.

Can't understand why the author deleted it. I liked the discussion and I had a question for you Steve in my last post, but obviously you didn't see since it's gone. So here it is again....

What rule are you basing the statment you made that retouching home and heading back to third unscores the run? Are you just extending to this situation the rule that states if a runner returns to a based they were forced to leave, that reinstates the force? Doesn't exactly apply here, but I see the logic.

I like your line of reasoning, I just want to know if there is a rule we can hang our hat on. Now if a runner has scored and errorneously thinks they have to return to 3rd and does so, we still score the run correct? Even if they are "tagged" while off the base?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by rwest

Can't understand why the author deleted it. I liked the discussion and I had a question for you Steve in my last post, but obviously you didn't see since it's gone. So here it is again....

What rule are you basing the statment you made that retouching home and heading back to third unscores the run? Are you just extending to this situation the rule that states if a runner returns to a based they were forced to leave, that reinstates the force? Doesn't exactly apply here, but I see the logic.

I like your line of reasoning, I just want to know if there is a rule we can hang our hat on. Now if a runner has scored and errorneously thinks they have to return to 3rd and does so, we still score the run correct? Even if they are "tagged" while off the base?

Didn't we just do this a few days ago? The learned men tell me that the key is that for a run to score the runner must ***legally*** touch all the bases. If they get home without legally touching all the bases they may return and try and correct the error and are subject to being put out. Once they legally touch all the bases there is nothing they can do to unscore. The only thing they can do by going back to third is to commit interference.
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Ocean View Condo

[rwest]

Originally Posted by youngump

Didn't we just do this a few days ago? The learned men tell me that the key is that for a run to score the runner must ***legally*** touch all the bases. If they get home without legally touching all the bases they may return and try and correct the error and are subject to being put out. Once they legally touch all the bases there is nothing they can do to unscore. The only thing they can do by going back to third is to commit interference.

Rule 5-5-A doesn't use the term "legally". The run would count if the runner missed each and every base and could only be negated on appeal. There's no rule reference that I know of that says that a runner returning to third negates the run. A runner who returns to third base when they don't have to by rule does not negate the score. At least that's the ruling in Fed, per case play 9.1.1 situation B and I'm assuming ASA is similar.

So, if the relay to 2nd was not in time and both runners made it back to their previous base safely, you are going to count the score and remove the runner from third since he already scored? And now the defense can't appeal to negate the run?

I believe negating the run is the correct thing to do, but we don't have a rule per se to govern this. We have to use 10-1 and make a ruling on something not expressly covered by the rulebook.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

Can't understand why the author deleted it. I liked the discussion and I had a question for you Steve in my last post, but obviously you didn't see since it's gone. So here it is again....

What rule are you basing the statment you made that retouching home and heading back to third unscores the run? Are you just extending to this situation the rule that states if a runner returns to a based they were forced to leave, that reinstates the force? Doesn't exactly apply here, but I see the logic.

I like your line of reasoning, I just want to know if there is a rule we can hang our hat on. Now if a runner has scored and errorneously thinks they have to return to 3rd and does so, we still score the run correct? Even if they are "tagged" while off the base?

Thought I answered this I don't believe there is a specific rule.

If the score is absolute, the runner could never be put out. However, if necessary to return to a missed base or base left too soon, you cannot have people running around a field drawing throws that cannot be retired. There is a rule about that, 8.7.P.

Since the rules permit a runner who has scored to retrace their path to touch a missed base or base left too soon, and a runner who has scored is allowed to return to the basepaths, logic says that runner is live and in jeopary.

[Skahtboi]

I don't see why anyone would have deleted the thread referenced by the OP either! Informative threads need to remain for future readers!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by rwest

Can't understand why the author deleted it. I liked the discussion and I had a question for you Steve in my last post, but obviously you didn't see since it's gone. So here it is again....

What rule are you basing the statment you made that retouching home and heading back to third unscores the run? Are you just extending to this situation the rule that states if a runner returns to a based they were forced to leave, that reinstates the force? Doesn't exactly apply here, but I see the logic.

I like your line of reasoning, I just want to know if there is a rule we can hang our hat on. Now if a runner has scored and errorneously thinks they have to return to 3rd and does so, we still score the run correct? Even if they are "tagged" while off the base?

As others have stated, that is an extension of logic and precedent set by other rules and approved rulings.

The two lines of thought I use include that reversing does reinstate a force (in effect, un-touching the base); that means the runner has given up that position, and is in jeopardy until she returns.

The second line attempts to prove the opposite is also true; if a runner touches home, then a coach yells "TAG HER!!!", so that the runner becomes confused and attempts to retouch home, we do NOT put her back in jeopardy. She touched home, and her confusion didn't make it a miss, even if she attempts to touch again. She has scored; period. If the defense caused the confusion, her attempt to retouch is their fault. If an offensive team member causes the defense to make a play on the already scored runner, and this interferes with a play on another runner, this could be interference.

Put them together (and consider the fact that no rule contradicts), and a runner that hasn't completed her running responsibilities is still a runner, despite having touched home, if she attempts to return to complete them. By reversing, she undoes the run, which run can only then score by returning to home prior to the 3rd out.

If she reverses after having completed her running responsibilities, she is an already scored runner, her reversal does not undo the run, but she can be called for interfering with another play.

If she does not reverse, her running violations are subject to appeal, including a fourth out appeal.

New red herring; on reversing to correct a running violation, doesn't she also have to retouch home on the reverse trip back to third? Couldn't there also be an appeal for that as a missed base? I don't believe any part of the prior thread stated if she did that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

... snip ... She has scored; period. If the defense caused the confusion, her attempt to retouch is their fault. If an offensive team member causes the defense to make a play on the already scored runner, and this interferes with a play on another runner, this could be interference.

Put them together (and consider the fact that no rule contradicts), and a runner that hasn't completed her running responsibilities is still a runner, despite having touched home, if she attempts to return to complete them. By reversing, she undoes the run, which run can only then score by returning to home prior to the 3rd out.

If she reverses after having completed her running responsibilities, she is an already scored runner, her reversal does not undo the run, but she can be called for interfering with another play.

If she does not reverse, her running violations are subject to appeal, including a fourth out appeal.
... snip ...

I think this sums it up.

I snipped the "red herring" paragraph, because it is the same issue we beat to death in an earlier topic.