2009 ASA Rool buks

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I don't drink THAT often, and I quit smoking!

Oh, I still haven't had a smoke since Jan 1, btw. Woohoo!

Back to the subject at hand, will they have the PDF version available this year? It's not on officialgear.com...

Hey, keep it up! Good for you.

I quit April 1st so I'm coming up on my 1 yr. Youre way over the hump bro, but I can tell you even 10 months later I occasionally still want one.

Throw that yoke off. Just move on accepting you will still want one. I dont know when that goes away, prolly different for every one.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I must be missing your point because I don't see the contradiction.

I don't have my 2009 book yet, so I'm relying on the quote Bretman posted above, and contrasting it with the 2007 book (which I have as a PDF). Sentences in the two quotes of the same color are directly contradictory. The saving grace is very few people will actually read the SAG.

Originally Posted by BretMan

(Page 168- Safety Awareness Guide) Catcher Masks and Throat Protectors for Juniour Olympic Fast Pitch: Catcher's must wear an approved batter's helmet with ear flaps, the catcher's helmet and mask, or an approved plastic face mask/guard with catcher's helmet. A throat protector for Junior Olympic fast pitch catchers is mandatory.

Originally Posted by ASA 2007 Rules

C. CATCHER MASKS: (Junior Olympic Fast Pitch) Catchers must wear a mask with throat protector, approved helmet with ear flaps, shin guards which offer protection to the knee caps and body protector. An extended wire protector may be worn in lieu of an attached throat protector. Any player warming up a Junior Olympic pitcher must wear a mask with throat protector and approved helmet with ear flaps. FP catchers cannot wear the plastic face mask/guard.
NOTE: (Sections A-B-C) The ice hockey goalie style face mask is approved for use by catchers. If the umpire feels that there is not adequate throat protection built onto the mask, a throat attachment must be added to the mask before using.

D. FACE MASK/GUARDS. Any defensive player or offensive player may wear a face mask/guard.
EXCEPTION: Fast pitch catchers cannot wear the plastic face mask/guard. Face masks/guards that are cracked or deformed, or if padding has deteriorated or is missing, are prohibited.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I disagree.

Both sentences clearly indicate that a plastic face mask worn by a catcher must be approved.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Sentences in the two quotes of the same color are directly contradictory.

At least my point wasn't so vague that nobody got it!

The rule you quote from 2007 was edited in the 2008 book, and reads the same in 2009, as I quoted above. Instead of saying, "FP catchers cannot wear the plastic face mask/guard", it now reads, "Fast pitch catchers cannot merely wear the plastic face mask/guard".

Somewhere along the the line, the rule was modified. Somebody purposely and consciously added the "merely" in there. That changes the context of the rule. The old rule flat-out prohibited this type of mask. The newer version suggests that the plastic guard, alone by itself, is not acceptable but could be worn in conjuction with an "approved" helmet.

We have a rule that suggests the "Game Face" type guard is acceptable, along with a Safety Guide that explicitly says it's acceptable. The Safety Guide also says that a "batting helmet" is acceptable headgear for a catcher.

If a catcher came out in one of your games wearing a batting helmet and a Game Face mask would you allow it?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The Game Face or similar products to not carry NOCSAE-approval stamps, therefore would not be considered "approved".

The equipment rules specify that batting helmets worn by offensive players must be NOCSAE approved, as do face masks attached to those helmets.

They do not specify NOCSAE approval for catcher's face masks, catcher's helmets or for any helmet worn by a defensive player in the field. So what does "approved" mean for those?

To answer my own question, I take it that "approved" in this sense means equipment that is acceptable through custom and practice. We know what a commercially available catcher's mask looks like and if what the catcher is wearing looks like one in good working order, it fits the bill. Absent a rule-specified standard, the "approval" is at the discretion of the umpire or game administrators.

No, this isn't something I'm going to lose any sleep over or expect to have a huge headache with once the season get underway. It's merely an observation on the title subject- the 2009 rule book.

Why publish a Safety Guide that contains information that conflicts with the printed rules? But, enough on the subject. I'm typing this post on my laptop while enjoying a good soak in my hot tub. The battery is running low and I'm going to need to reach over and plug in the power cord...

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I disagree.

Both sentences clearly indicate that a plastic face mask worn by a catcher must be approved.

Are you distantly related to Lewis Carroll? Or, maybe Bill Clinton?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here's what I have heard on the topic.

The older rule that said a FP catcher could not wear a plastic face guard was editorially changed; the change doesn't (intend to) suggest that the plastic face guard might replace the mandated equipment, it is intended to now allow the faceguard to worn in addition to the required equipment. The former wording made that (both) illegal; while I don't expect to see a catcher wearing a GameFace or equivalent in addition to the required equipment, that change now makes it possible.

The Safety Guide wording is, quite simply, wrong; if you look at the wording for JO slowpitch catchers in the following paragraph, it is word-for-word, other than the last sentence regarding a throat protector. They (the editors) let the lesser slowpitch requirements be printed for both fastpitch and slowpitch. Thankfully, I don't believe anyone is foolish enough to believe that this would supercede the rule.

In re: a 2009 .PDF file, we were given a CD at the UIC Clinic with the 2009 Rulebook, Casebook, Umpire Manual and Clinic Guide. Since they exist, it is likely (and reasonably) only a matter of time before they are also commercially available.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The Safety Guide wording is, quite simply, wrong; if you look at the wording for JO slowpitch catchers in the following paragraph, it is word-for-word, other than the last sentence regarding a throat protector. They (the editors) let the lesser slowpitch requirements be printed for both fastpitch and slowpitch. Thankfully, I don't believe anyone is foolish enough to believe that this would supercede the rule.

I'm sure there are plenty of explanations to go around. You look at it as wrong, I think CYA. Just like folks who used to argue that "resin" was incorrect and it should be "rosin".

Just because it is noted where it is, doesn't necessarily make it wrong. For all we know, someone had the foresight of what may be to come. After all, a couple years ago a batter's helmet was developed and produced as a single piece w/NOCSAE approval. Unfortunately, that did not coincide with the wording of the rule. Who is to say we will not see an approved one-piece plastic helmet or plastic face mask strong enough to be awarded NOCSAE approval?

The SAG is simply what it states, a GUIDE, not a rule. Of course, there already have been and will be folks who are going to want to cite the SAG as it applies to the game.

[Skahtboi]

p.163 "Anyone who has played softball, or any other contact sport..."

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

p.163 "Anyone who has played softball, or any other contact sport..."

How to you tag someone without contact?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How to you tag someone without contact?

"Spock, I said put your phaser on stun!!!"

To the best of my knowledge there has not never nohow been a NOCSAE standard for a catcher's MASK.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

"Spock, I said put your phaser on stun!!!"

To the best of my knowledge there has not never nohow been a NOCSAE standard for a catcher's MASK.

For the mask itself, that may be true. But in today's world, the catcher's headgear comes as a single unit and meet a NOCSAE standard.

A couple years ago at an ASA National equipment check-in, many of the catchers brought their helmet/masks and showed us the NOCSAE stamp, even though we did not request to see it.

And there are no NOCSAE requirements made by ASA, but that doesn't mean it gets ignored. While ASA demands an "approved" mask, I don't see where the standard of approval is noted.