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Old Wed Nov 05, 2008, 10:52pm
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FP hit by pitch

ASA Rule 8 1 The batter becomes a batter-runner

F. (Fast Pitch) When a pitched ball not swung at nor called a strike touches any part of the batter's person including the hands or clothing.
Effect: Dead ball, the batter is entitled to one first base [sic] without liability to be put out.
Exception: If no attempt is made to avoid being hit, the batter will not be awarded first base unless it is ball four.
Note: The batter's hands are not part of the bat.

And Rule 7, Section 5. A ball is called by the umpire.
A. (Fast Pitch) For each legally pitched ball that does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing.
Effect: The ball is live and runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out.

My question relates to a pitched ball that hits the ground first and then hits the batter. Which of the above rules takes precedence? Is there a particular reference to that in the rules? Whenever this happens the first complaint from the defensive coach is that the ball hit the ground. The next complaint is that the batter didn't make an attempt to get out of the way.

A ball hitting the ground can bounce in unknown directions. We have a home plate or two on various fields where a corner might be slightly elevated from ground level. If a batter is deep in the batter's box and a low pitch comes in and hits one of those elevated corners then caroms off and comes in contact with the batter who didn't swing, do they get the award? With a runner on base, would it result in a dead ball?

Envision a situation with runner(s) on base. Pitch is low and inside and the batter is jumping back. The pitch hits that corner of the plate and pops up into the air. Batter has lost sight of the ball, which comes down and hits her helmet. Hit by pitch? Live ball? Dead ball?

Thanx,

Ted

Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 10:54pm.
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Old Wed Nov 05, 2008, 11:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
ASA Rule 8 1 The batter becomes a batter-runner

F. (Fast Pitch) When a pitched ball not swung at nor called a strike touches any part of the batter's person including the hands or clothing.
Effect: Dead ball, the batter is entitled to one first base [sic] without liability to be put out.
Exception: If no attempt is made to avoid being hit, the batter will not be awarded first base unless it is ball four.
Note: The batter's hands are not part of the bat.

And Rule 7, Section 5. A ball is called by the umpire.
A. (Fast Pitch) For each legally pitched ball that does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing.
Effect: The ball is live and runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out.

My question relates to a pitched ball that hits the ground first and then hits the batter. Which of the above rules takes precedence? Is there a particular reference to that in the rules? Whenever this happens the first complaint from the defensive coach is that the ball hit the ground. The next complaint is that the batter didn't make an attempt to get out of the way.

A ball hitting the ground can bounce in unknown directions. We have a home plate or two on various fields where a corner might be slightly elevated from ground level. If a batter is deep in the batter's box and a low pitch comes in and hits one of those elevated corners then caroms off and comes in contact with the batter who didn't swing, do they get the award? With a runner on base, would it result in a dead ball?

Envision a situation with runner(s) on base. Pitch is low and inside and the batter is jumping back. The pitch hits that corner of the plate and pops up into the air. Batter has lost sight of the ball, which comes down and hits her helmet. Hit by pitch? Live ball? Dead ball?

Thanx,

Ted
Don't understand why you would think either one would not be in effect.
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Old Wed Nov 05, 2008, 11:10pm
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The precedence would come in Rule 8 because the batter becomes a runner. By rule, the ball becomes dead once it hits the batter.

My version of common sense -- and being the idiot I am, my sense ain't very common -- tells me if the batter can't see the ball (like in your scenario) she can not avoid it.

Of course the defensive coach is going to say she didn't try to avoid. That's his job. Don't pay the coach any mind -- let them do their job, you do your job in sending little Kelsey on down to first base.
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Old Wed Nov 05, 2008, 11:36pm
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Don't understand why you would think either one would not be in effect.

Because I might take the rules too literally at times. I've bumped into some issues taking the umpire's exam on occasion because of how things might have been worded. While the intent was one thing, the syntax was something else.

An example for me related to a question about an intentionally dropped fly ball. My problem was that I couldn't find a rule about only infielders being unable to intentionally drop a fly ball. But that's a whole 'nuther subject.

In this case, there is a rule that says if a pitched ball hits the ground in front of home plate, or hits home plate, it's called a ball. There are no options given [in the rule] for what might happen after that ball did that.

And maybe not every little detail can be spelled out, but it's problematic for me. [Read - my preference with an understanding that perhaps the benefit is not worth the cost.] Maybe because I used to author business control audit documentation. Example: We respond to each customer inquiry within 24 hours. Test: Determine time stamp of receipt of customer inquiry and time stamp of completion. Evaluate percentage of closures within a 24-hour period. If the business is not operating 24/7, and you get the inquiry at 4:45 PM the day before Thanksgiving, when might it be resolved? Better wording might be that "we respond to each customer inquiry within 1 business day".

Ted
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Old Wed Nov 05, 2008, 11:57pm
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You are reading too much into the rules.

Any pitch outside of the strike zone at which the batter doesn't offer is a ball. Anytime the batter is hit by a pitched ball that is out of the strike zone at which the batter doesn't offer is a HBP assuming the batter did no just stand there and take it.
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 12:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
In this case, there is a rule that says if a pitched ball hits the ground in front of home plate, or hits home plate, it's called a ball. There are no options given [in the rule] for what might happen after that ball did that.
Ted
As I said in my previous reply, the citation in Rule 8 concerns the batter becoming a runner. The citation in Rule 7 concerns the batter.

Another example: In Rule 7, we see the references to a ball being called on the batter. In Rule 8, we see that when four balls are called, the batter becomes a runner.

Even more simple:
*Rule 7 concerns the batter
*Rule 8 concerns the batter becoming a runner, and rules about runners.

If you make these homogenous, that is your problem. They are two totally different things.

BTW, do you have a brother or cousin named Brad?

(That spewing sound is SRW ruining his keyboard and monitor.)
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 08:43am
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I have no brothers. Don't have a cousin named Brad that I'm aware of.

I've called the HBP scenarios in games. I was just trying to qualify the call. And, yes, I look at the rules too literally at times, which may be the obverse of reading too much into the rules.

All the houses on B Street are made of brick.
John lives in a house on B Street.
Ergo, John lives in a brick house.

FP: A pitch that hits home plate is called a ball and is a live ball.
A pitch that hits a batter [not in the strike zone] is a dead ball.
Ergo, a pitch that hits home plate and then hits a batter is a live/dead ball.

Yeah, warped logic.

Ted
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 09:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
.

FP: A pitch that hits home plate is called a ball and is a live ball.
A pitch that hits a batter [not in the strike zone] is a dead ball.
Ergo, a pitch that hits home plate and then hits a batter is a live/dead ball.

Yeah, warped logic.

Ted
oh boy.....

You got a game to run. Dont get caught up in twisting on invented issues. There are enough real issues that will find you.
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 09:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I have no brothers. Don't have a cousin named Brad that I'm aware of.

I've called the HBP scenarios in games. I was just trying to qualify the call. And, yes, I look at the rules too literally at times, which may be the obverse of reading too much into the rules.

All the houses on B Street are made of brick.
John lives in a house on B Street.
Ergo, John lives in a brick house.

FP: A pitch that hits home plate is called a ball and is a live ball.
A pitch that hits a batter [not in the strike zone] is a dead ball.
Ergo, a pitch that hits home plate and then hits a batter is a live/dead ball.

Yeah, warped logic.

Ted
Your logic train starts in the middle...

Start with this: Any pitch that hits the batter is a dead ball.

Now, continue...
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 12:40pm
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Maybe I'm looking on this too simplistically but it seems to me they both apply and they do not conflict. In your example you state the ball hit the plate. So at that moment in time it's a ball and still a live ball by Rule 7- at that moment. Moments later, the ball hits the batter out of the strike zone- it was a legally pitched ball and you state the batter is jumping back, hence she's trying to avoid being hit. So then it at that later moment in time it becomes a dead ball by Rule 8 and the batter is awarded first base. This isn't either/or logic; it's analog- sequential events in time and both rules are directly applicable.
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 01:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
All the houses on B Street are made of brick.
John lives in a house on B Street.
Ergo, John lives in a brick house.
But living in a brick house doesn't mean that John must live on B St.

Quote:
FP: A pitch that hits home plate is called a ball and is a live ball.
A pitch that hits a batter [not in the strike zone] is a dead ball.
Ergo, a pitch that hits home plate and then hits a batter is a live/dead ball.

Yeah, warped logic.
No, it's not. The ball that hits the plate is a ball and still live until it hits the batter. Now, it is a dead ball and a HBP.

A HBP must be a ball because it cannot be a strike. However, just because it is not a strike, doesn't mean it was a HBP.

Priorities.
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullCount View Post
In your example you state the ball hit the plate. So at that moment in time it's a ball and still a live ball by Rule 7- at that moment. Moments later, the ball hits the batter out of the strike zone- it was a legally pitched ball and you state the batter is jumping back, hence she's trying to avoid being hit.

You show me a plate that sticks up far enough for this to happen, and I'll show you an unplayable field condition.
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 01:28pm
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Originally Posted by topper View Post
You show me a plate that sticks up far enough for this to happen, and I'll show you an unplayable field condition.
Then you better stay away from about 95% of the fields on which I've umpired.
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 03:31pm
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OK, I like the "sequential process" explanation.

I know what the call should be. I've been HBP a few times and on occasion I've even hit a few batters myself.

So while I was cognizant of the rule application, I was struggling with how the rules were written.

Thanx for your inputs.

Ted
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Old Thu Nov 06, 2008, 03:32pm
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Originally Posted by bkbjones View Post
BTW, do you have a brother or cousin named Brad?

(That spewing sound is SRW ruining his keyboard and monitor.)
You not only ruined my monitor and keyboard, but brought up a bad memory to which I will need another 3 months of therapy. Thanks a lot, jerk.



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