Never saw this before

CajunNewBlue · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 08:35am

R1 is waiting for the pitch and has back foot on bag and front foot is planted about 2ft on 2nd base side of infield...whilst waiting she is picking her back foot up and down in a "tapping" motion... kinda like timing the pitch. So im watching her and the DC is watching her from his bucket... So my question is: is this leaving early?
I didn't call anything on her as she made no motion to advance (and i wasn't sure if this was actually anything... I admit it

) and it was a "no rules" "friendly" tournament per the UIC's pep talk in the change room and DC didn't object during the 4 pitches she did it. But, since we are there to arbitrate the rule(s) and I couldnt find anything in my case books specifically about this. let me know.

DeputyUICHousto · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 08:54am

Did her actions allow her to get to 2nd base any faster? I doubt I would call this.

robbie · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 09:10am

Given your tournament situation and directive by the UIC, I'm not saying that it should have been called, but..................IN NSA, clearly an out.

NSA Rule 8, Section 8 - The baserunner is out: u. When the baserunner(s) fails to keep contact with their base until a legally pitched ball leaves the pitcher's hand. The ball is dead, "NO PITCH" is declared and the baserunner(s) is declared out."

Yes, the plural leads to some discussion (typically poorly worded NSA rules), but the situation is on point and clear - out.

jmkupka · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 09:11am

I've seen NCAA umps watching like a hawk, when the runner is just shifting weight from foot to foot, for a break in contact with the bag.

I see what you're describing quite often, if anything I'll brush dirt off the bag & mention that she has to maintain contact- even then it's only if a DC has an issue with it.

Dakota · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 10:34am

The only time you'd make that call would be if R1 is on 3B in the bottom of the 7th and represents the tying run.

SRW · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 10:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

The only time you'd make that call would be if R1 is on 3B in the bottom of the 7th and represents the tying run.

Oh there it is... the wink/rollseyes/grin/eek. It's tiny, but I think I see it.

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRW

Oh there it is... the wink/rollseyes/grin/eek. It's tiny, but I think I see it.

I try to be subtle...

Tru_in_Blu · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 12:03pm

Given that the UIC mentioned that the tournament was of a "friendly" nature, and I've worked some of these, some subtle things might be overlooked. A lot of times, coaches/teams are trying out players at different positions and these players might not know the nuances of the game. If I'm working a scrimmage between two travel teams, I'll ask the coaches at the start how they want the game officiated. Sometimes they want free substitution, or a little leeway forsomeone who's pitching for the first time. As long as they both agree, I'm amenable.

So in that environment, a little leniency might be appropriate. Given that, I've also seen coaches go ballistic on what they've perceived as a bad call or rule interpretation they didn't like. These coaches are obviously wound a bit too tight and forget the purpose of the tournament.

In any case, the ASA rule is:

(Fast Pitch) When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the
runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.
EFFECT - Sections 8 R-S: The ball is dead, “no pitch” is declared when
applicable, and the runner is out.

Note that it doesn't mention anything about advantage being gained.

Doing a 12-14 year old rec league last spring, [one umpire games] the runner at second base didn't return after a pitch. Once the pitcher had the ball in the circle the runner still stood there. I waited, but once the pitcher took the pitcher's plate and began her delivery, I called the runner out. Offensive coach whined "You're gonna call THAT??!!" "Yes, coach. Now explain the rule to your baserunner."

Ted

Dakota · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 12:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

...Doing a 12-14 year old rec league last spring, [one umpire games] the runner at second base didn't return after a pitch. Once the pitcher had the ball in the circle the runner still stood there. I waited, but once the pitcher took the pitcher's plate and began her delivery, I called the runner out. Offensive coach whined "You're gonna call THAT??!!" "Yes, coach. Now explain the rule to your baserunner."

Ted

You waited too long. Since it was a rec league, I might have given her a 1001, 1002 count from the point I highlighted above, but if she's not moving after that, she's out. Waiting until the windup begins is definitely too long.

If a baserunner is shuffling her feet, positioning her foot on the bag, etc., calling that because she "fails to keep contact" is OOO IMO (with the exception I noted a couple of posts above!

).

Tru_in_Blu · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 03:25pm

Well, knowing that a lot of the girls at that level are still learning the game, I wanted to give her the chance to return back to the base. Clearly, she didn't know the rule, and none of her coaches told her to get back, so they either didn't notice or didn't want others [including the umpire] to be aware of it.

Had the pitcher dallied about some, like many do at that age, the runner might have remembered to get back on the base. That clearly wasn't happening, so she was going to be called out. The pitcher getting right back on the pitcher's plate facilitated a quicker call.

In the same league, a playoff game ended when the batter grounded out and saw the throw sail over F3's head. The runner took a couple of quick steps toward second base and saw that the ball made a quick carom off the fence post [not out of play] and bounced right back to F3. Defensive coach is yelling for F3 to tag the runner, who is now casually walking back to 1B from short RF. Out, game over, season ends for that team. All the coaches and most of the parents knew what had happened, and most regretted that one team's season had to end that way. All who spoke to me after the game agreed it was the right call.

Some lessons learned are harder to take than others.

Ted

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 03:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

In the same league, a playoff game ended when the batter grounded out and saw the throw sail over F3's head. The runner took a couple of quick steps toward second base and saw that the ball made a quick carom off the fence post [not out of play] and bounced right back to F3. Defensive coach is yelling for F3 to tag the runner, who is now casually walking back to 1B from short RF. Out, game over, season ends for that team. All the coaches and most of the parents knew what had happened, and most regretted that one team's season had to end that way. All who spoke to me after the game agreed it was the right call.

"But Blue, how can you end a game with a call like that?!?!" or another one of my favorites, "How can you make that call in such an important game?"

Tru_in_Blu · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 03:40pm

"But Blue, how can you end a game with a call like that?!?!"

"'Cuz that's when it happened."

or another one of my favorites,

"How can you make that call in such an important game?"

"Because it's important to make the correct call no matter how important the game."

SC Ump · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

...whilst waiting she is picking her back foot up and down in a "tapping" motion...

"Time!" Run over to bag and while smoothing out the slight undulations in the dirt, state very quietly, "I have to call you out if you're tapping your foot up and down and it leaves the bag."

youngump · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Did her actions allow her to get to 2nd base any faster? I doubt I would call this.

Because no advantage was gained? Half the obvious significant look back rule violations don't have any advantage gained. If the girl at first leaves clearly early with the bases loaded and the other runners aren't going are you going to say not out because she didn't get an advantage?

As to the overall question, let me pose an alternative violation of the rule that I've been ignoring to make sure you all agree I should. The runner is at third. After the pitch she goes back to third where she stands just outside the diamond without touching the base while talking to her coach. She then slides her foot over to the bag. I've never figured it was in the spirit of the rule so I've never done anything. Everybody okay with that?
________
LIVE SEX

SethPDX · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 05, 2008, 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump

Because no advantage was gained? Half the obvious significant look back rule violations don't have any advantage gained. If the girl at first leaves clearly early with the bases loaded and the other runners aren't going are you going to say not out because she didn't get an advantage?

Nope. I have an out. If a runner from first gets enough of a head start she might be able to score. Sounds like an advantage to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump

As to the overall question, let me pose an alternative violation of the rule that I've been ignoring to make sure you all agree I should. The runner is at third. After the pitch she goes back to third where she stands just outside the diamond without touching the base while talking to her coach. She then slides her foot over to the bag. I've never figured it was in the spirit of the rule so I've never done anything. Everybody okay with that?

How long is she standing off the bag? Not something I would usually worry about. Maybe if she's taking a long time to get her foot back over you could remind her quietly.