NSA Rule Interpretation re: Intentionally Dropped Ball

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I meant if you didn't make the ID call

Ummm... Am I missing something here? In ASA, the ball is either caught or not caught. If it's caught (meeting the necessary definitions of a catch), then intentionally dropped to the ground, I've got a dead ball with the BR out. If it's in the glove, but dropped before control was ever gained (ie., it squirts out of the glove), then I've got nothing.

What part of the question am I missing?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Ummm... Am I missing something here? In ASA, the ball is either caught or not caught. If it's caught (meeting the necessary definitions of a catch), then intentionally dropped to the ground, I've got a dead ball with the BR out. If it's in the glove, but dropped before control was ever gained (ie., it squirts out of the glove), then I've got nothing.

What part of the question am I missing?

Yes, you are. Instead of answering the question, you are thinking

I wanted to know if one of the outs you would believe is undeserved due to the deception is the BR.

The reason I wanted to know has already been noted in another post. A BR who runs when they hit the ball will never be doubled up due to an intentionally dropped ball. If the BR doesn't run? Shame on them, no protection is deserved.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A BR who runs when they hit the ball will never be doubled up due to an intentionally dropped ball.

Nor will a batter-runner who DOESN'T run, since it's a physically impossibility to get two outs on an intentionally dropped ball.

If you're talking about an ASA game where the fielder guides the ball to the ground, or just lets it hit his glove and drop, or a game under rules that allow the fielder to let the ball drop untouched (none of which should be ruled as "intentionally dropped"), I can see two, or even three, outs being made, even if the BR hustles out of the box.

On a high pop up, sure, the batter-runner should have plenty of time to reach first safely. But if it's a line drive right at an infielder, it would be easy to knock the ball to the ground, get a force at second, then the BR at first (a legal play in ASA, illegal under other rule sets).

How about a weak blooper right at a fielder, or a very short bunt popped up right around the plate? Any airbourne batted ball that that doesn't have a lot of "hang time", lets the fielder get a quick handle on the ball and forces any baserunners to tag up for an impending catch, has the potential for the defense to get multiple outs, including the batter-runner.

Except, apparently, under NSA rules.

[greymule]

I don't like ASA's rule that allows a fielder to guide the ball to the ground. In actual games, however, this seems to occur very rarely, even at the top levels where fielders know how to grab every advantage. In fact, the only time I ever had to deal with this situation was in reverse. In a SP tournament I was overseeing, F3 knocked a liner down with a closed glove and began a try for a double play. The PU called an intentional drop, but nobody contested the call. I had to inform the umpire later that what F3 had done was legal.

It is true that in codes that allow a fielder to let a catchable ball drop (apparently every code but NSA), a fast-thinking fielder might turn what looks like an easy catch into a double play. I've seen a very few cases in MLB where with a runner on 1B an infielder deliberately traps a soft liner that he could have caught. In those rare cases, maybe the defense deserves the DP.

[BretMan]

A follow-up to the question about the NSA rule on "intentionally dropped" balls:

After an email exchange with the NSA National Director of Umpires, he has confirmed that under their rules a ball that is allowed to drop untouched by a fielder can be ruled as an "intentionally dropped" ball.

This makes the NSA ruling unique in all of the baseball and softball world, as all other rule sets I've researched require there to be actual contact with the ball by the fielder for an intentional drop to be ruled.

We now have three separate and distict interpretations, depending on the rule set, to cover this (admittedly rare) play.

Just chalk it up to another one of those rule differences that will confound the coaches, baffle the players and, possibly, trip up an umpire who works multiple associations.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A BR who runs when they hit the ball will never be doubled up due to an intentionally dropped ball. If the BR doesn't run? Shame on them, no protection is deserved.

Exactly! What is deserved is a double play and a good chewing out by the coach.

Originally Posted by Bretman

After an email exchange with the NSA National Director of Umpires, he has confirmed that under their rules a ball that is allowed to drop untouched by a fielder can be ruled as an "intentionally dropped" ball.

Can't say that I like their rule, but it is good to know that's what they want. Thanks for that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

A follow-up to the question about the NSA rule on "intentionally dropped" balls:

After an email exchange with the NSA National Director of Umpires, he has confirmed that under their rules a ball that is allowed to drop untouched by a fielder can be ruled as an "intentionally dropped" ball.

In as much as ASA's rule leaves some room for interpretation, this one seems to leave a LOT of room. Does this mean that if F4 who sits back an waits to short hop a lazy line drive, it could be ruled an ID? What if the fielder allow the ball to fall to the ground and it skips away from him/her, is the ID call still valid?

Well, it's their game and they can do what they want, but I can just envision some of the arguments that could come along with this rule.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yes, you are. Instead of answering the question, you are thinking

I wanted to know if one of the outs you would believe is undeserved due to the deception is the BR.

The reason I wanted to know has already been noted in another post. A BR who runs when they hit the ball will never be doubled up due to an intentionally dropped ball. If the BR doesn't run? Shame on them, no protection is deserved.

I'm thinking a cheap double play is what is undeserved. If the batter hits one to the shortstop that should've been easily caught, and the shortstop simply knocks it down, F6 now has an easy double play.

I just think it's cheap. Bottom line.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In as much as ASA's rule leaves some room for interpretation, this one seems to leave a LOT of room. Does this mean that if F4 who sits back an waits to short hop a lazy line drive, it could be ruled an ID? What if the fielder allow the ball to fall to the ground and it skips away from him/her, is the ID call still valid?

Well, it's their game and they can do what they want, but I can just envision some of the arguments that could come along with this rule.

The only thing I do like about the ASA rule is that it leaves nothing up to interpretation. The ball must be caught, then voluntarily released to attempt to deceive a runner other than the BR into thinking they are forced to vacate their base. I don't think there's much interpretation left in this rule at all.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The only thing I do like about the ASA rule is that it leaves nothing up to interpretation. The ball must be caught, then voluntarily released to attempt to deceive a runner other than the BR into thinking they are forced to vacate their base. I don't think there's much interpretation left in this rule at all.

The interpretation is whether it is "caught". There are umpires that have differing opinions on that, also.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm thinking a cheap double play is what is undeserved. If the batter hits one to the shortstop that should've been easily caught, and the shortstop simply knocks it down, F6 now has an easy double play.

I just think it's cheap. Bottom line.

And who put the ball into play? Who failed to hit it where they ain't? Who hit is so poorly, they allowed the defense to make what you refer to as a cheap double play?

It wasn't the defense who must still execute properly to accomplish the DP.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The interpretation is whether it is "caught". There are umpires that have differing opinions on that, also.

That's not interpretation, that's judgment.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

That's not interpretation, that's judgment.

Not when the umpire's differ on what consitutes a "catch". Some umpires want to see a catch, demonstration of possession prior to the drop. Others want to see the ball "inside" the glove, and some will call it a catch if they see a touch.

Have had plenty of discussions with different umpires and you wouldn't believe the range of responses as to when they will make that call, judgment aside.

[jmkupka]

Just to continue an interesting thread... if you can suffer OBR for a moment.
TWICE in one week in September, Phillies vs Braves.
Both cases, 1 out, R1 on 1B.

Situation 1: Phils' F4 lets a high popup land in his wide-open glove (never squeezes it), then lets it fall to his feet. Picks it up to get an out at 2b, retiring the far-speedier runner instead of the BR.
BU kills the play, sending Chipper Jones back to 1B and calling the batter out.
Knowing smiles all around.

Situation 2:
High pop to F5, who settles under it then lets it drop untouched at his feet. Picks it up and retires R1 at 2B. Play stands.

Does this jive with ASA rules?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Just to continue an interesting thread... if you can suffer OBR for a moment.
TWICE in one week in September, Phillies vs Braves.
Both cases, 1 out, R1 on 1B.

Situation 1: Phils' F4 lets a high popup land in his wide-open glove (never squeezes it), then lets it fall to his feet. Picks it up to get an out at 2b, retiring the far-speedier runner instead of the BR.
BU kills the play, sending Chipper Jones back to 1B and calling the batter out.
Knowing smiles all around.

Situation 2:
High pop to F5, who settles under it then lets it drop untouched at his feet. Picks it up and retires R1 at 2B. Play stands.

Does this jive with ASA rules?

That would depend on umpire judgment of whether F4 "caught" the ball in Situation #1.