How do you correct this problem?

[umpire george]

Girls fast pitch, 18U
1 out, R1 on 3rd base, R2 on 2nd. Batter hits liner toward F4 which hits ground inches in front of her glove. Both runners try to advance and F4 throws ball to plate. R1 scores and things settle down, for the moment.
Plate umpire states ball was caught in the air and batter is out. Defensive coach tells F2 to get ball back to 3rd base because R1 left on release, appeals her for leaving before ball was caught.
Big problem is plate umpire did not loudly and quicky yell out on catch.
Base umpire, R1 and R2 had good angle on hit and know ball hits ground before being caught. That's why both runners attempted to advance.
Time is called by base umpire to try to straighten things out.
What is the correct thing to do to make things right?

[Dakota]

Preferred option: BU tells PU what he saw and PU reverses himself. All play then stands.

Second option: PU sticks with his out call, but acknowledges that his delayed call placed the runners in jeopardy. Appeal denied. Runners returned to their bases. Batter out.

Third "option": PU sticks with his out call, and stands by his original signal as not placing players in jeopardy. BR out, R1 out on appeal. OC ejected during the ensuing argument.

In no case do you tell anyone other than your partner what you saw.

[CecilOne]

Good answer, except the "Third option" should have "option" in quotes, small type, italics, maybe red.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by umpire george

Big problem is plate umpire did not loudly and quicky yell out on catch.

If the PU saw F4 make the catch, the PU should have immediately yelled "That's a catch, that's a catch! While verbalizing that the ball was caught, the PU should have also been giving the out mechanic.

If the PU did not see F4 make the catch, the PU should have immediately signaled no catch. Perhaps even giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion,

If either coach came out to chat at the conclusion of the play, that's when the PU could have decided whether s/he needed more information from the BU.

Dakota gave three options for your situation. Where any of those options utilized? What was the end result of your situation?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

If the PU saw F4 make the catch, the PU should have immediately yelled "That's a catch, that's a catch! While verbalizing that the ball was caught, the PU should have also been giving the out mechanic.

If the PU did not see F4 make the catch, the PU should have immediately signaled no catch. Perhaps even giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion,

If either coach came out to chat at the conclusion of the play, that's when the PU could have decided whether s/he needed more information from the BU.

Dakota gave three options for your situation. Where any of those options utilized? What was the end result of your situation?

I disagree with yelling anything but "OUT", if correct of course.

I agree with "giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion", again if correct.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Good answer, except the "Third option" should have "option" in quotes, small type, italics, maybe red.

Done!

[NCASAUmp]

I agree. This happens a lot, and the PU can't always make the immediate call because we're at a bad angle. Some partners of mine and I have given each other subtle signals such as a closed fist if it's a clean catch or pointing to the ground to show it hit the ground first. Cleaning this up is, quite simply, a mess we'd all love to avoid.

But when the mess is made, all you can do is talk it over with your partner and try to get it right. If the PU did call a catch, then that's just that. Call it as loud as you can without killing your voice, and make that signal clear as soon as possible. If the runner coming home doesn't see the big hammer in the air, that's their problem and their coach's problem for not paying attention.

However, this sitch is presented with a delayed call. PU should put R1 back on their previous base if he sticks to his out call.

[robbie]

michael - I totally disagree with:
"Perhaps even giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion"
A safe signal is hands out to side ONE time. If yo uwant to sell it, leave hands extended for several seconds, but do not flail them out and back several times.

[socalumps]

Originally Posted by robbie

michael - I totally disagree with:
"Perhaps even giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion"
A safe signal is hands out to side ONE time. If yo uwant to sell it, leave hands extended for several seconds, but do not flail them out and back several times.

And your frame of reference is supported by?

A "pumping" of the safe signal is commonly accepted as a safe sell call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

A safe signal is hands out to side ONE time. If yo uwant to sell it, leave hands extended for several seconds, but do not flail them out and back several times.

Actually, until a couple years ago, the ASA safe sell was "SAFE" w/signal, one step toward the play and repeat. It is still often used by those who have been around a while as it is quite effective.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by robbie

michael - I totally disagree with:
"Perhaps even giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion"
A safe signal is hands out to side ONE time. If yo uwant to sell it, leave hands extended for several seconds, but do not flail them out and back several times.

I also disagree with this, but I agree that using this mechanic does look kind of silly in this sitch. One safe call is all I would use, but I would hold the arms out for a moment longer than usual.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by robbie

michael - I totally disagree with:
"Perhaps even giving the safe mechanic several times to sell the call could have eliminated confusion"
A safe signal is hands out to side ONE time. If yo uwant to sell it, leave hands extended for several seconds, but do not flail them out and back several times.

I wouldnt use it to sell a safe at a base, but I think its find to show a quick safe a few times to sell an uncall.

[bigsig]

Guys, I have had this situation as a BU more than a few times and I can tell you that I have NOT signaled safe when the PU, who has the call, calls it a catch.

If he looks over at me I'll give him a closed fist or hand signal, both very discrete, but I would never try to overrule his call while in a live ball situation.

If the PU comes to me and asks what I saw I will tell him/her, but I will not volunteer it. I was taught never to make your partner look bad. JMHO

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by bigsig

Guys, I have had this situation as a BU more than a few times and I can tell you that I have NOT signaled safe when the PU, who has the call, calls it a catch.

If he looks over at me I'll give him a closed fist or hand signal, both very discrete, but I would never try to overrule his call while in a live ball situation.

If the PU comes to me and asks what I saw I will tell him/her, but I will not volunteer it. I was taught never to make your partner look bad. JMHO

Motion seconded.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bigsig

If he looks over at me I'll give him a closed fist or hand signal, both very discrete, but I would never try to overrule his call while in a live ball situation.

We all use them, but, at least in my area, the players and coaches have picked up on the signals and will use that as an argument if the call doesn't go their way. IOW, you may have already contradicted your partner no matter how discreet you believe you may have been.