triple Play Stitch

[mdntranger]

I think you all are being a little too hard on Whiskers...his OP really sounds like a HTBT situation. He made many statements and later clarifications that allow me to give the benefit of the doubt...granted unusual, but isn't that why we all sit here and post?

Here's what I'm focusing on...while keeping in mind that there's a lot of action going on with 2 runners and nobody out...

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

-CF fires the ball to 3B, who happens to be standing on the bag, with R2 advancing from 2B

**I read this that F5 did not know that R1 left early. Usually, there's a lot of 'they left early' yelling going on that helps indicate there's an appeal (not stated, personal experience).

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

-No obvious appeal at 3rd, and I as PU, made no call.

**This is the HTBT situation...judgement call

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

-What made me believe F5 had no clue is, she immediately after catching the
[granted, she was on the base on inital contact of ball] ball begin chasing R2
toward 2B.
-CF's throw, IMO, was to get the advancing runner from 2nd. At the time
I did not know whether R2 left early or not, because my tag up was on R1.

**Again, judgement. Noted in this clarification, F5 began chasing the runner...it was not a catch and throw to F4. Also noted, Whiskers didn't know that R2 left early.

Perhaps the Red Herring in all this is the statement 'Everyone in the park was aware of it'. As the clarification statements came out, Whiskers didn't know R2 left early and it sounds like F5 perhaps didn't know R1 left early. We can't see the body language that Whiskers saw at the time...from his posts, though, he did not see what could be construed as an appeal.

So yes, normally this would be a textbook play...but then again if that were the case, we wouldn't be discussing it right now.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Just curious, Mark, what exactly is an "active appeal?" Aren't all appeals "active" in some form or fashion? The do require some action on the part of the defense, whether the ball is live or dead. Or is this baseball-ese for what we call a "live ball appeal?"

Skahtboi:

When we think of appeals we think of live ball and dead ball appeals. The two following plays come to mind:

1) B1 hits a triple (a fair ball down the right field line). B1 touches first base and third base but misses second base. The ball stays in live ball territory the entire time. F9 fields B1's hit and throws the ball to F3 who throws it to F1 in the circle. F4 then calls for F1 to throw her the ball which F1 does. F4 then tells BU that she is appealling B1 missing second base and proceeds to touch second base. This is a live ball appeal.

2) R1 is on first base when B2 hits a ground ball to F5 who throws the ball over F3's head into dead ball territory. The BU awards R1 third base and B2 second base. R1 does not touch second base on her way to third base. The PU throws a new ball to F1 who is in the pitching circle. F1 immediately throws the ball to F4 and F4 tells the BU that she is appealling R1 missing second base and proceeds to touch second base. This is a dead ball appeal.


The second out in my original post is an example of an active appeal. R1 left third base too soon and R1, F5, and F8 all know that R1 knows that R1 left third base too soon. There is no need for F5 to tell the BU that she is appealling R1's leaving third base too soon. I guess one could define an active appeal as part of continuous play.

MTD, Sr.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Skahtboi:

When we think of appeals we think of live ball and dead ball appeals. The two following plays come to mind:

1) B1 hits a triple (a fair ball down the right field line). B1 touches first base and third base but misses second base. The ball stays in live ball territory the entire time. F9 fields B1's hit and throws the ball to F3 who throws it to F1 in the circle. F4 then calls for F1 to throw her the ball which F1 does. F4 then tells BU that she is appealling B1 missing second base and proceeds to touch second base. This is a live ball appeal.

2) R1 is on first base when B2 hits a ground ball to F5 who throws the ball over F3's head into dead ball territory. The BU awards R1 third base and B2 second base. R1 does not touch second base on her way to third base. The PU throws a new ball to F1 who is in the pitching circle. F1 immediately throws the ball to F4 and F4 tells the BU that she is appealling R1 missing second base and proceeds to touch second base. This is a dead ball appeal.


The second out in my original post is an example of an active appeal. R1 left third base too soon and R1, F5, and F8 all know that R1 knows that R1 left third base too soon. There is no need for F5 to tell the BU that she is appealling R1's leaving third base too soon. I guess one could define an active appeal as part of continuous play.

MTD, Sr.

I could have saved you a lot of typing. All you needed to say was to you an "active appeal" was what most SB umpires call a "live ball appeal."

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Skahtboi:

When we think of appeals we think of live ball and dead ball appeals. The two following plays come to mind:

1) B1 hits a triple (a fair ball down the right field line). B1 touches first base and third base but misses second base. The ball stays in live ball territory the entire time. F9 fields B1's hit and throws the ball to F3 who throws it to F1 in the circle. F4 then calls for F1 to throw her the ball which F1 does. F4 then tells BU that she is appealling B1 missing second base and proceeds to touch second base. This is a live ball appeal.

2) R1 is on first base when B2 hits a ground ball to F5 who throws the ball over F3's head into dead ball territory. The BU awards R1 third base and B2 second base. R1 does not touch second base on her way to third base. The PU throws a new ball to F1 who is in the pitching circle. F1 immediately throws the ball to F4 and F4 tells the BU that she is appealling R1 missing second base and proceeds to touch second base. This is a dead ball appeal.


The second out in my original post is an example of an active appeal. R1 left third base too soon and R1, F5, and F8 all know that R1 knows that R1 left third base too soon. There is no need for F5 to tell the BU that she is appealling R1's leaving third base too soon. I guess one could define an active appeal as part of continuous play.

MTD, Sr.

You are right, cause if F5 asked BU if R1 left early, he better say nothing.
He was responsible for R2 on 2B. Had they asked him and he called her out,
we would have had a problem.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by mdntranger

I think you all are being a little too hard on Whiskers...his OP really sounds like a HTBT situation. He made many statements and later clarifications that allow me to give the benefit of the doubt...granted unusual, but isn't that why we all sit here and post?

Speaking personally, I have a lot of respect for Whiskers on this board. And I think others do too. Keeping that in mind, I don't think people are being hard on him. Rather, they're being frank with their opinions while also not denigrating or being inflammatory (i.e. they are being respectful).

As for this being a judgement call, yes, it is. And I back Whiskers all the way on making the call as he saw it.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by celebur

Speaking personally, I have a lot of respect for Whiskers on this board. And I think others do too. Keeping that in mind, I don't think people are being hard on him. Rather, they're being frank with their opinions while also not denigrating or being inflammatory (i.e. they are being respectful).

As for this being a judgement call, yes, it is. And I back Whiskers all the way on making the call as he saw it.

Thank You for the support. It was rather a HTBT stitch, however, I feel certain
that would it occur in the same manner again, my call would be the same.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

You are right, cause if F5 asked BU if R1 left early, he better say nothing.
He was responsible for R2 on 2B. Had they asked him and he called her out,
we would have had a problem.

Whiskers:

You are exactly correct. I knew better but was concentrating on explaining my definition of "active appeal." She should have been appealing to the PU. But I think you understand the what I was trying to say.

MTD, Sr.

[UmpireErnie]

There is no sense in us debating if what Glen saw was an obvious live ball appeal of R1 leaving 3B to early, becuase none of us saw it. Let's stipulate for a moment that when Glen watched F5 catch the throw from F8 [I]something[I] caused him to doubt if an appeal was being made on R1 or not.

Never guess an out, right?

So if he is unsure of the intent to appeal, he should not call the out.

Now what if he were to not call R1 out on appeal and she did touch the plate, and as it turned out the defense was appealing R1 leaving early as well as R2 leaving early? No problem. As soon as the defense realizes the umpire has not called R1 out someone is going to say "but she left too soon, Blue!!" Boom, now you have your appeal and the 3rd out anyway.

Whiskers, I think you got it right!