ASA Robot Umpires

[RKBUmp]

I was flipping through the channels the other day and caught a pro fast pitch game just as the batter laid down a sac bunt with a runner on first. Runner broke for 2nd, 1st base ump moved into his perfect 90 degree position to make the call on the the throw from the catcher, directly into the throwing lane from 1st to 2nd. The runner had rounded 2nd, F3 wanted to throw to 2, but the ump was directly in the way.

[socalumps]

I would suspect that it wasn't a true 90 degree angle if the umpire interfered. Where did the throw come from? Unless the catcher threw directly from the plate angle or from foul territory (usually a bunt goes out further into fair territory) there would be no need to go as far as the 1b-2b baseline, which is a true 90 degrees (intersection of foul line with 1b-2b line). If the 1b is stretching towards the throw from the catcher that would take them even further into the diamond...and if umpire still interfered...they could have been out of position. That would be on the umpire..not the preferred mechanic...I saw the Bandit-Force game, if that is the one you are talking about...didn't see this play.

Be that as it may...if a play (or subsequent play) takes you out of your prefered situation..by all means..move somewhere else. Thats like straddling a passed ball at home and not allowing catcher to get to it because you are in "your position?"

[wadeintothem]

I dont think there is any doubt that NCAA has surpassed ASA in mechanics and their system.

The reason for it is simple, ASA designs their mechanic to a lower common denominator of umpire and does little to adjust/allow for adjustment as the umpire advances. They are too rigid in their expectations, to the point of not allowing growth or superior position on a case by case basis.

NCAA 3 man is superior, especially their considerations of inside/out theory vs rim.

NCAA plate positioning is superior.

NCAA focus on being smarter and reading the play is superior.

4th dimension is valid when it is given real consideration as a technique on tag plays.

Umpire-umpire communication is far superior... especially this year with ASA National Staff disallowing nonbook umpire communication.

NCAA is MUCH LESS robotic than in years past IMO. ASA allows no individuality with one single exception - called 3K..

ASA has fallen behind.. where they used to lead the way.


As to being chosen for ASA Nationals vs Fed.. obviously ASA Nationals is superior, especially since it means something towards advancing in umpiring.. whereas post season NFHS means nothing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I dont think there is any doubt that NCAA has surpassed ASA in mechanics and their system.

That depends on how you view each assn. mechanics

The reason for it is simple, ASA designs their mechanic to a lower common denominator of umpire and does little to adjust/allow for adjustment as the umpire advances. They are too rigid in their expectations, to the point of not allowing growth or superior position on a case by case basis.

I agree with the first part and it is an obvious reason. However, I disagree with the part. I have been around a while working some high-level nationals and I can tell you as a fact, the umpires who work their way up have made adjustments and are anything, but robotic. Each have an on-field character of their own and they all still learn.

NCAA 3 man is superior, especially their considerations of inside/out theory vs rim.

I've worked both and I'll take the I/O though there are limited instances (in the 3+ umpire systems only) where an umpire on the corner stays outside. I had quite a long discussion with HP in Plant City concerning such situations.

NCAA plate positioning is superior.

IMO, that's laughable as there are obvious drawbacks that you just refuse to see.

NCAA focus on being smarter and reading the play is superior.

ASA doesn't focus on an umpire using their brain and read a play? I feel sorry for those who go through your training as it sounds you are definitely receiving inferior training compared to what we stress.

4th dimension is valid when it is given real consideration as a technique on tag plays.

Yeah, another catch phrase that has no meaning. No matter what an umpire does, he is still only going to get a 3-D look at best. And getting such an angle is nothing more than an umpire moving into what s/he believes is the most advantageous look available. Something that all umpiring bodies have been preaching for years.

Umpire-umpire communication is far superior... especially this year with ASA National Staff disallowing nonbook umpire communication.

If you say so. Other than the IFF, I don't believe there is that much need for special "signals".

NCAA is MUCH LESS robotic than in years past IMO. ASA allows no individuality with one single exception - called 3K.

Again, I disagree with your view of ASA. Then again, how many different ways can you execute the signal for a routine out or safe call? And what is wrong with having a uniform method of providing signals to communicate the results of an event for those not within earshot?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA doesn't focus on an umpire using their brain and read a play? I feel sorry for those who go through your training as it sounds you are definitely receiving inferior training compared to what we stress.

Actually, my training comes from 3 primary sources, 2 pac 10 umpires, 1 of who is elite ASA, the other is NIF.. and the 3rd is ISC (mens FP)/ASA Elite umpire and former pac 10 umpire.. all fast pitch umpires. These guys have called at the highest levels.


Now that said.. their training goes something like this:

Well in NCAA it goes like this.. in ASA, especially when being evaluated, it needs to be like this, but another way to do it is NCAA way or this way that way

It doesnt take much training from top level NCAA/ASA guys before you realize NCAA has passed up ASA. Thats simple fact IMO.

I've talked to none involved at high level of both org who deny ASA has been passed.

The only people who really deny it are die hard ASA guys who dont even actually diligently check how NCAA does it to see if maybe there is a better way.

If you stay stuck on "ASA leads the way" without even knowing how the top NCAA umpires are doing it, then that is your choice. I approach it differently. When top dogs teach, I listen.

[socalumps]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That depends on how you view each assn. mechanics



I agree with the first part and it is an obvious reason. However, I disagree with the part. I have been around a while working some high-level nationals and I can tell you as a fact, the umpires who work their way up have made adjustments and are anything, but robotic. Each have an on-field character of their own and they all still learn.



I've worked both and I'll take the I/O though there are limited instances (in the 3+ umpire systems only) where an umpire on the corner stays outside. I had quite a long discussion with HP in Plant City concerning such situations.



IMO, that's laughable as there are obvious drawbacks that you just refuse to see.



ASA doesn't focus on an umpire using their brain and read a play? I feel sorry for those who go through your training as it sounds you are definitely receiving inferior training compared to what we stress.



Yeah, another catch phrase that has no meaning. No matter what an umpire does, he is still only going to get a 3-D look at best. And getting such an angle is nothing more than an umpire moving into what s/he believes is the most advantageous look available. Something that all umpiring bodies have been preaching for years.



If you say so. Other than the IFF, I don't believe there is that much need for special "signals".



Again, I disagree with your view of ASA. Then again, how many different ways can you execute the signal for a routine out or safe call? And what is wrong with having a uniform method of providing signals to communicate the results of an event for those not within earshot?

I kinda get the feeling we are beating a dead stubborn horse with with a stick. Which resolves very little. I do have a lot of respect for those who have kept current, viewed with open eyes and relate accurate information. Evolving I guess you could say. I do appreciate the NCAA openness to exploring MLB's training of their umpires. Could there be any better source of information...realizing that some stuff applies some doesn't...but most is worthy of trial and consideration, along with the emphasis of allowing for "thinking" umpires. All the while aknowledgeing all ASA has done for umpireing (including me personally) locally, nationally and worldwide.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Of course, we are beating a dead horse.

You folks talk about having an open mind, yet you have nearly zero tolerence for ASA doing things differently if it conflicts with the NCAA methods.

The NCAA, like MLB, trains their umpires to a particular game and number of a crew. ASA doesn't have that luxury. As noted before, some of the mechanics need to be simplistic and not necessarily scenario specific. But please don't take that as a dummying down for not-as-smart umpires than those at the NCAA/MLB level.

Just because someone doesn't work that level, does not make them any less an umpire than those who do. Nor does it makes those who do any better than those who do not.

There are many umpires who are very good umpires, but they have issues that prevent them from working NCAA levels. They are called career and family. On the same topic, there are many umpires who get great assigments that are not necessarily deserved simply due to availability, while there are many deserving umpires that do not get these assignments simply because a slot is not available.

Nonetheless, just because the NCAA methods support something different, it doesn't mean it is better. It just means those in charge of instructing their umpires believe it fits their game.

For example, 3blx. For some calls, it works fine, though I believe some umpires get too far away. However, it is not the be all to end all positions and leaves an umpire not in good position to adjust.

Meanwhile, the ASA game often have plays at the plate where the runner comes directly into the plate and catcher. In this circumstance, the 3blx is the one place an umpire should not be since they cannot see through the catcher.

I just don't agree with the "this is where you need to be, end of story" mentality. I would hope that doesn't exist anywhere, but from how some umpires act on the field, it certainly seems that their mind is on the position, not the play.

[DNTXUM P]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I just don't agree with the "this is where you need to be, end of story" mentality. I would hope that doesn't exist anywhere, but from how some umpires act on the field, it certainly seems that their mind is on the position, not the play.

Mike,

I agree with a lot of what you say. ASA needs to make their mechanics as simplistic as possible for the vast majority of umpires that call league ball every night, have no desire to move up the ladder but are very happy doing what they do. And I have a great deal of respect for these people. They are the backbone of umpiring in the country.

However, you never answered my question earlier. When is the last time you looked at an NCAA manual? The 3rd base line extended position is used for swipe tags. Not for every play at the plate. You keep saying this is the only position they want their umpires to use and that is not correct. Again, when was the last time you looked at a manual. It has changed drastically over the past few years.

[socalumps]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Of course, we are beating a dead horse.

You folks talk about having an open mind, yet you have nearly zero tolerence for ASA doing things differently if it conflicts with the NCAA methods.

The NCAA, like MLB, trains their umpires to a particular game and number of a crew. ASA doesn't have that luxury. As noted before, some of the mechanics need to be simplistic and not necessarily scenario specific. But please don't take that as a dummying down for not-as-smart umpires than those at the NCAA/MLB level.

Just because someone doesn't work that level, does not make them any less an umpire than those who do. Nor does it makes those who do any better than those who do not.

There are many umpires who are very good umpires, but they have issues that prevent them from working NCAA levels. They are called career and family. On the same topic, there are many umpires who get great assigments that are not necessarily deserved simply due to availability, while there are many deserving umpires that do not get these assignments simply because a slot is not available.

Nonetheless, just because the NCAA methods support something different, it doesn't mean it is better. It just means those in charge of instructing their umpires believe it fits their game.

For example, 3blx. For some calls, it works fine, though I believe some umpires get too far away. However, it is not the be all to end all positions and leaves an umpire not in good position to adjust.

Meanwhile, the ASA game often have plays at the plate where the runner comes directly into the plate and catcher. In this circumstance, the 3blx is the one place an umpire should not be since they cannot see through the catcher.

I just don't agree with the "this is where you need to be, end of story" mentality. I would hope that doesn't exist anywhere, but from how some umpires act on the field, it certainly seems that their mind is on the position, not the play.

Good post. I don't know that the claim has been made that any one set of mechanics is the end all, or that "this is where you need to be, end of story" is any affiliations mantra. I know these thoughts are not currently promoted by the SUIP nor are they suggested in the current NCAA manual. Some umpires seem to be confused on these issues. I would hope that any umpire who has attended an NCAA regional clinic in the past 2-3 years or is familiar with the manual and current teachings and philosophies would aknowledge that. The X marks the spot days are over and have been for a couple years. The promotion of a "thinking-adjusting" umpire is prevelant and extremely effective in my opinion.

[DNTXUM P]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I was flipping through the channels the other day and caught a pro fast pitch game just as the batter laid down a sac bunt with a runner on first. Runner broke for 2nd, 1st base ump moved into his perfect 90 degree position to make the call on the the throw from the catcher, directly into the throwing lane from 1st to 2nd. The runner had rounded 2nd, F3 wanted to throw to 2, but the ump was directly in the way.

The correct mechanic, even if the ball were directly in front of home plate on a sac bunt would be a 90 degree angle from the throw, which would put the ump in the throwing lane to 2nd base, but in this case, the 1B ump would back off this angle a couple of steps (maybe 75 or 80 degree angle) so he/she would not be in the throwing lane. This is why the NCAA now allows their umps to make these decisions after reading what is happening, so they can get in the best possible position for that play but still not interfere with the next possible play.