Sorry, simple foul tip question

[roadking]

Batter foul tiped third strike but cather does not catch ball, is this a strike out or a foul ball. thanks

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by roadking

Batter foul tiped third strike but cather does not catch ball, is this a strike out or a foul ball. thanks

If the ball did not go sharply and directly to the catcher's glove/hands and was caught, it is not a foul tip.

[Dholloway1962]

a foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught by the catcher.

Many fans, catchers, and coaches mistakenly use the term "foul tip" to describe any pitch at which the batter swings and makes slight contact, regardless of whether it is caught by the catcher.

It is not a foul tip if it first touches anything other than the catcher's hand or glove, or if it is not legally caught and held by the catcher. In such cases the pitch is a foul ball and not a foul tip. If the pitch touches the ground before reaching the batter, it can no longer be legally caught and therefore cannot be a foul tip; if the batter then swings and nicks that ball with his bat, it would be an ordinary foul ball and not a foul tip, even if held by the catcher.

Credit Wikipedia for most of this with a few minor editorial changes. Hopefully this will help you.

Some organizations, DSI e.g., do say "sharp and direct" but still have "not higher than the batter's head" as part of the foul tip definition.

[robbie]

"If the pitch touches the ground before reaching the batter, it can no longer be legally caught and therefore cannot be a foul tip; if the batter then swings and nicks that ball with his bat, it would be an ordinary foul ball and not a foul tip, even if held by the catcher."


Is this a stated rule somewhere. Not so sure I agree. What about ball that touches the ground before reaching the batter, and is then hit on a fly to the shortstop and is caught? By the above logic, this would not be an out, which as we all know is false.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

It is not a foul tip if it first touches anything other than the catcher's hand or glove, or if it is not legally caught and held by the catcher. In such cases the pitch is a foul ball and not a foul tip. If the pitch touches the ground before reaching the batter, it can no longer be legally caught and therefore cannot be a foul tip; if the batter then swings and nicks that ball with his bat, it would be an ordinary foul ball and not a foul tip, even if held by the catcher.

Not so. Any ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove/hand(s) and it caught, it is a foul tip. I don't care how many times the ball touches the ground prior to contacting the bat.

Do not confuse this is a D3K that is not hit.

[BretMan]

RE: Foul tip on a bounced pitch...

This one been's a hot topic of debate on the baseball side of things for years. The debate was compounded by the fact that rules interpreters at the pro schools had issued completely opposite rulings- one said the nicked ball could be caught for a foul tip, one said it could not.

After much debate, it was finally agreed that the pitch bouncing was irrelevant to the call. Once touched by the bat, the ball is a legally batted ball and all of the rules governing a batted ball apply. The accepted ruling now is that a bounced pitch can indeed become a foul tip.

But enough about baseball! How is this ruled in the (fastpitch) softball world?

Without an authorative printed ruling at hand, I will say that in softball (at least, ASA softball) a bounced pitch can become a foul tip. I am basing this on a question from the 2008 ASA Umpire Exam. Here was the question:

11FP) With no outs and B1 at bat with a 0-2 count, the pitch hits the ground before B1 swings. The batted ball goes directly from the bat to F2’s glove and is securely held. This is a foul tip.

The answer provided to me was "TRUE".

Now, as far as something from the rule book or case book that specifically addresses this, I have nothing- and no time to dig for it right now as I'm getting ready to head out for a game. Maybe someone else can come up with that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Now, as far as something from the rule book or case book that specifically addresses this, I have nothing- and no time to dig for it right now as I'm getting ready to head out for a game. Maybe someone else can come up with that.

Speaking ASA

There is something in the rule book.

Rule 1.FOUL TIP
Rule 7.4.E
RS #22

All we are experiencing here is people trying to outthink a rule or justify myths in which they believe as truth. There is no reason to address a pitch hitting the ground prior to a foul tip because it is irrelevant to the rule.

[BretMan]

Well, yeah...I meant other than the standard rules covering legally batted balls and foul tips!

Something specific like the helpful "NOTE" under 8-1-F that tells us the batter's hands are not part of the bat. Something that addresses the "myth" aspect of this play, maybe a case book ruling or something like that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Well, yeah...I meant other than the standard rules covering legally batted balls and foul tips!

Something specific like the helpful "NOTE" under 8-1-F that tells us the batter's hands are not part of the bat. Something that addresses the "myth" aspect of this play, maybe a case book ruling or something like that.

If they had to address every myth some idiot umpire bought into, the rule book would be bigger than War and Peace.

[roadking]

Then the foul tip signal should only be used on a caught ball given the criteria for a foul tip? Would you give this signal regardless of the count, just in case you have a attempted steal or do you only use it to sell the strike out.

[greymule]

the foul tip signal

I don't give any signal or announce anything. A foul tip is simply a strike call.

I admit that you see even some MLB umpires brush the right hand over the back of the left hand to indicate a foul tip, but there's really no reason to do so.

[IRISHMAFIA]

The proper mechanic is to give the signal anytime a foul tip occurs.

[cpa]

There is every reason in the world to give a foul tip signal on a caught ball -- especially if you have base runners stealing or just off base when it occurs. A foul tip imposes no tag up responsibilities on a runner, whereas a foul ball caught by the catcher (anything OTHER than a foul tip -- backwards line drive, pop up, whatever) imposes tag up responsibilities

Given that a strike call and an out call can look similar, the foul tip signal communicates that the ball is live and that no tag up responsibility exists.

[greymule]

If you say and signal "strike," everybody knows it's not a caught foul ball. Stealing runners are not likely to see your foul tip signal.