Good Call / Bad Call - Page 2

IRISHMAFIA · #16 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 16, 2002, 09:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by Art N
Silly question (from a non-softball umpire)... Don't you think that maybe the rules regarding a runner touching all the on a homerun should be changed? The ball (like Elvis) has left the building,er park, right? Why do we have this rule to begin with? I know it's in baseball too and has been around since Fred Flintstone was playing. I'll stand back now and listen to the logic and fury.

The rule exist at most levels because the players still haven't figured out how easy it is to touch all four bases and to eliminate the rule, you are depriving the defense from obtaining an out through the offense's stupidity.

Dakota · #17 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 16, 2002, 11:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by Art N
Silly question (from a non-softball umpire)... Don't you think that maybe the rules regarding a runner touching all the on a homerun should be changed? The ball (like Elvis) has left the building,er park, right? Why do we have this rule to begin with? I know it's in baseball too and has been around since Fred Flintstone was playing. I'll stand back now and listen to the logic and fury.

Speaking ASA, touching the bases on a HR or 4 base award is not required for Super, Men's Major, and Men's Class A. (8-3-I EXCEPTION)

bluezebra · #18 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 16, 2002, 03:43pm

When I started doing FED baseball in 1973 (after 17 seasons doing youth ball, semi-pro, rec ball, etc.), I almost had a stroke after going through the Rules Book. At that time, a runner was NOT required to touch any bases after a ground rule hit. In one game, after hitting a home run over the fence, the batter turned to the crowd, took off his helmet and bowed.

Bob

[Edited by bluezebra on Mar 16th, 2002 at 02:48 PM]

bluezebra · #19 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 15, 2003, 07:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Art N
Silly question (from a non-softball umpire)... Don't you think that maybe the rules regarding a runner touching all the on a homerun should be changed? The ball (like Elvis) has left the building,er park, right? Why do we have this rule to begin with? I know it's in baseball too and has been around since Fred Flintstone was playing. I'll stand back now and listen to the logic and fury.

Actually, in FED, that's not true. When I started umping FED baseball in 1973, a player did not have to touch the bases on an awarded hit. I forget when they changed the rule.

Bob

refjef40 · #20 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 12:39pm

Just my two cents but I agree we have to call an out on a obvious appeal play.The girl still got the thrill of a home run she just learned a lesson also.I know how LadyBlue felt to because a few years ago before the appeal rule I called a girl in a H.S. Var. game out in a 0-0 game for clearly missing second on a over the fence homer.Like her I wasn't sure if I would get out alive!I would do it everytime the same though.

CecilOne · #21 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 08:16am

This is a year old thread I brought back because the first 10 posts are worth re-reading, IMO.

Skahtboi · #22 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 06:48pm

I just had another thought about this. Who would have ever heard of Fred Merkle (of Merkle's Boner fame) if Glen's partner had been umping that day instead of O'Day and Emslie?!

Scott

DownTownTonyBrown · #23 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 25, 2003, 11:37am

A home run includes more than just hitting the ball over the fence. A home run also includes touching all the bases in the proper order and this touching is the easy part.

No pressure. No defense. No worries. No hurry. Stutter step but make sure you touch them all. Jump and stomp on them if you want.

Your partner could easily make it obvious that he is watching this activity by running along-side and even making an under his breath comment "Make sure you touch 2nd!" I personally would never make that comment if I felt the run was important but in this case it was not (I get the feeling from the original post that the Home Team is obviously out-manned - down by 9 runs in the 5th. Home player is ecstatic about her hit.)

Don't scream too loud Mike. I recognize your anal tendencies and know that what I am suggesting is well outside the rules.

Personnally, I wouldn't find this little bit of coaching to be near the chip in integrity as I would lying about a call that needed to be made (Saying he didn't see her miss the base when he had - I don't want to work with this guy.)

I recommend that during a game, two seconds of quietly playing the part of a coach can avert a career of resentment and prevent permanent loss of integrity. It could possibly anger one coach if you are very obvious (probably not in this situation) but will probably gain you respect with the other. JMHO

CecilOne · #24 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
... snip ... Your partner could easily make it obvious that he is watching this activity by running along-side and even making an under his breath comment "Make sure you touch 2nd!" ... snip ... I recommend that during a game, two seconds of quietly playing the part of a coach can avert a career of resentment and prevent permanent loss of integrity. It could possibly anger one coach if you are very obvious (probably not in this situation) but will probably gain you respect with the other. JMHO

OK, I believe in preventive officiating as much as anyone, but direct verbal instructions are a little over the line for me. I try to be conspicuously watching all base runners and especially home run hitters, but say nothing.

As far as "anger one coach ... gain you respect with the other", maybe. But that coach might then suspect you of helping the opponent the next time you see that team. That goes for players, also.

Elaine "Lady Blue" · #25 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 27, 2003, 12:16pm

I agree with CecilOne, no need to 'play the coach', you lose integrity as an umpire to anyone that finds out, and believe me, someone will find out eventually.

DownTownTonyBrown · #26 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 27, 2003, 01:14pm

However, the role of a good umpire is not just robotically enforcing the rules. I feel you need to create a miniature relationship with the players and coaches. You must be personable. You must be understanding. How do you do that? Lie? Intentionally make incorrect calls? I think NOT!

Do any of you talk to the firstbaseman that stands on the inside corner of the base and thereby obstructs the batter-runner from turning towards 2nd?

Do any of you ask the catcher to scoot back from her legal position in her box to ensure she doesn't get hit and that she doesn't interfere with the batter who wants to stand at the very back of the box?

Do any of you ask the coach to take a different postion to ensure he doesn't assist/contact a runner or to stay in the coaching box so you can see your plays better at 1st or down the third base line?

Do any of you talk to the batter to ensure her toes are inside the box before the first pitch comes?

Do any of you talk with the pitcher to promote proper pitch delivery or to prevent the opposing coach from complaining about what he might feel are illegal pitches?

The difference between the above scenarios, which I assume you all do and that you feel are acceptable, is very slight from running the bases with a highly excited batter that has just hit a very surprising homerun and subtly saying "make sure you touch them all."

I don't think any of the above scenarios, including the baserunning, make your integrity questionable. But a partner who lies that he didn't see it when he did... and that intentionally calls something wrong... for the benefit, or to lift the spirits of one team... then brags about his achievement. That person may have a wonderful life but for me he doesn't have any integrity. I would be very nervous working with that person or even being associated with that person. What's true, what's a lie, is this story for real?

Telling a runner to touch a base as she rounds it is a bit of a stretch but I think of the above scenarios as preventive and as a positive impact that an umpire can have on the game. Additionally, I feel they improve that relationship with the teams and establish integrity.

CecilOne · #27 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 27, 2003, 02:57pm

I understand, but I try to differentiate between a player that has already violated an aspect of the rules like being out of the box or off the pitching plate versus instructing them beforehand.

Dakota · #28 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 27, 2003, 03:25pm

There is a big difference (IMO) between warning a player or a coach about what they have already done to not do that again, especially if it can be a potential safety issue, than coaching a player in the middle of a play.

If you are warning F3 about her position so she will not be charged with obstruction, you have crossed the line. OTOH, if you are warning her to aviod a collision (safety), that is allowed, IMO.

Do you tell the batter she swung early?

Do you remind F3 when stretching for a catch to not pull her foot?

Do you tell a fielder to get her glove down?

Reminding a runner to touch the bases is coaching. She has two base coaches for that. It is crossing the line, IMO, for an umpire to do things like that.

IRISHMAFIA · #29 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 08:04am

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Do any of you talk to the firstbaseman that stands on the inside corner of the base and thereby obstructs the batter-runner from turning towards 2nd?

No, I call the obstruction and then tell the firstbaseman why.

Quote:

Do any of you ask the catcher to scoot back from her legal position in her box to ensure she doesn't get hit and that she doesn't interfere with the batter who wants to stand at the very back of the box?

If the catch is that close, his/her feet may be legal, but a good portion of the rest of him/her may cause CO.

Quote:

Do any of you ask the coach to take a different postion to ensure he doesn't assist/contact a runner or to stay in the coaching box so you can see your plays better at 1st or down the third base line?

You should be TELLING them to stay in the box.

Quote:

Do any of you talk to the batter to ensure her toes are inside the box before the first pitch comes?

Speaking ASA, you cannot allow the pitcher to pitch until the batter's entire foot is within the batter's box.

Quote:

Do any of you talk with the pitcher to promote proper pitch delivery or to prevent the opposing coach from complaining about what he might feel are illegal pitches?

Not in a discussion format, but as I'm cleaning the pitcher's plate I will let them know what I need to see for the pitch not to be illegal. (i.e. evidence of a drag)

Quote:

The difference between the above scenarios, which I assume you all do and that you feel are acceptable, is very slight from running the bases with a highly excited batter that has just hit a very surprising homerun and subtly saying "make sure you touch them all."

Agreed. There is no reason to say anything to a runner other than to answer a permissible question. For that matter, there are many coaches who don't want you talking to their player for ANY reason.

That doesn't mean I cannot ask a pertinent question of a player, or find out who is taking the throw at 2B or question a player's physical condition if something seems amiss. I just don't talk to the players about actually making plays.

Elaine "Lady Blue" · #30 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 09:35am

The answers given by CecilOne, Dakota and Mike are on the money. We are there to officiate a fair, clean game that is both enjoyable and competative for the girls. We are not there to give coaching tips, but tips that were mentioned are part of preventative umpiring which we all should do, but not go overboard.
I'll miss being out there again, as I believe I'll go into full retirement, or I could be like Micheal Jordan and come out next year. I just hope my years of experience can benefit someone on these boards. I love the game and I do not want to see it damaged by any player, coach, parent, fan OR umpire.