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Sat Mar 09, 2002, 06:50pm
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Close call at 1st.... Coach in a polite fashion would like to question it.
What might be a proper sequence of events? Coach: Time Blue... (walks out to the BU) Are you sure about that call? BU: Yes Coach I am sure.... And we're back to the ball game. But what if, as a courtesy to the coach, you want a second opinion from your partner....
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Chuck Lewis Ronan, MT Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he could be gone every weekend. 
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Sat Mar 09, 2002, 06:58pm
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No way!
Ask your partner and you'll have both coaches asking for a second opinion on every close play and probably some not-so-close ones. You might as well let the plate ump call the game alone. If the coach claims F3 was off the bag and you're not sure because from your position you might not have been able to see it, that's another thing. Otherwise make your call and stick to it. Absolutely never ask your partner on a straight play, even if you realize you blew it.
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Sat Mar 09, 2002, 09:25pm
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Re: No way!
Quote:
Scott
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Sat Mar 09, 2002, 10:38pm
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Chuck,
If you have any doubt on a pulled foot, check with your partner before you make the call with something like this: "Steve, did she have the bag?", then make the call. You made the call and that's what we go with. Do not go to your partner, without the coach's request, after you've made the call. In college, if a coach "asks" you to check with your partner, you must do so. In ASA and Fed, you do not have to, but it is a very good idea to do so - unless you've got a jerk or two coaching that game. If a coach ever asks me if I am sure of a call - I am absolutely positive. If a coach gets specific about a pulled foot or a tag and then ask that I check with my partner, chances are very good that I will.
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Steve M
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Sat Mar 09, 2002, 10:42pm
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Possible pulled foot.....or a tag/no tag........or a juggled ball.......or possible ball on the ground that I didn't see........sure...........as long as the coach told me that's what he/she saw.......
But a coach just coming out and saying............"I disagree with your judgement call..........you called out/safe.............I thought she was safe out"............does not cut it......... I want to know what the coach saw........and "You were wrong....." does not qualify as what the coach saw.........  Joel
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Sun Mar 10, 2002, 10:22am
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Quote:
 glen
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glen _______________________________ "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain.
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Sun Mar 10, 2002, 10:54am
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Re: No way!
Quote:
Use the tools available, and if there is any doubt, whether you believe you got it right or not, you ask your partner. If s/he is a good umpire, they will come to you, tell you exactly what they saw, and allow you to make the proper call. If your pride is more important than the ball game, give the money back and leave because you are not doing the job for which you are being paid.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Sun Mar 10, 2002, 11:16pm
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Mike..........I know you are not saying to check with your partner even if you are sure you are right?
Situation............banger at first.........the throw beats the runner by a whisker........we, as trained umpires have seen this play hundreds if not thousands of times....... What seems like a to close to call play to most........is not a problem to us....... We sell an out call............... 1st base coach is not too happy about this call because it went against his team.........he politely asks you to check with your partner to "get the call right"....... What do you do? Not go to your partner and give the money back because your not doing your job? And if you answer......."what's the harm in checking with your partner"? What if your partner says.........y'know Mike......from my angle.......I sure thought that the runner beat that throw......... What do you do then? It's still your call.............do you change it, even though you are sure the throw beat the runner..........or change it because your partner saw it differently? Slippery slope............ I know we have had this argument before..........and I don't have a problem asking if I was not sure.......In certain situations......... But I am NOT going to my partner on a call that is a pure out/safe that I know I nailed........ And to be honest............I don't like umpires coming to me on plays that they were in position to call and I was 75+ feet away from........ Joel
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Mon Mar 11, 2002, 07:25am
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I'm with Joel.
I'll ask BEFORE I make the call if I'm not sure on a pulled foot or swipe tag if my partner is in position to help. Dito for caught or uncaught third strike of foul tip near the ground. (This is covered pregame and most coaches are unaware of the help unless they question call.) I always get help if asked on check swing called a ball; never if called a strike. I'll ask for help on a batted ball that may have hit a batter near the plate, or batter hit by pitch, if my view is blocked. I'll always confer with partner if an award or penalty is questioned. I'll offer help on a play where I see the ball on the ground during a tag if partner doesn't appear to see the ball. I do not ask for help on my judgement calls. IMO the umpire is hired to exercise his judgement, not defer to his partner. Offering my opinion as the PU on BU's judgement of out/ safe at first from the PU's position makes about as much sense as the BU responding to a check swing question by responding "NO, she didn't go, but the pitch caught the corner!!!!" Roger Greene
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Mon Mar 11, 2002, 09:44am
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"straight" plays only
I think my post may have been somewhat misunderstood. It's not a matter of pride at all. What I said was never ask your partner on a STRAIGHT PLAY. If you're the BU, whether the runner beat the throw or not is your call, not the PU's. Yes, ask, "Did she have the bag?" "Did she go?" and so on. Yes, if your partner calls an out on a tag and you see the ball come out and roll on the ground, go offer help. By all means confer on a rule interpretation. But unless the coach claims there's something about a call that you couldn't see because of your angle, or claims that you misapplied a rule, it's your call and that's it. If you're the PU and the BU calls out a runner you think beat the throw at first, just turn around and go back behind the plate.
In a tournament last summer, I was PU and was certain a runner beat the throw to first. BU calls her out. Coach goes out to question BU's call. PU says, "Coach, the runner's foot was still in the air when the ball was in the glove." Not how I saw it. The coach must have known the game, though, because he didn't even try "ask your partner."
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Mon Mar 11, 2002, 10:41am
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Greymule:
I think what Mike and I have contention with is the fact that you said "even if you realize you blew it." That does imply that it is not important to get the call right, which is completely wrong. The most important think is to get the call right at all cost. So...if you realize that you blew the call, going to your partner will give you the chance to rethink the call, confer with your partner to see what they saw, and then to safe face by making the correct call. JMHO Scott
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Mon Mar 11, 2002, 11:13am
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There has been a lot of discussion on getting it right here and I want to ask an opinion of the experts.On talking about help from your partner here is what I did for the first time the other day.I have six years experience in H.S. and I was p.u. at a varsity semi-final tournament.A girl had a inside pitch and it appeared she swung and I called a strike.Well as I called it I felt wrong the girl twisted her body hard and I was partially blocked by a big catcher who was moving to catch the ball.I now realized that she had only turned and everybody was yelling no swing even the catcher told she didn't swing!The coach knew we don't take back strikes so she didn't come out.On my own I asked my partner and he said no swing definatly.I took the strike back and everyone was happy.I never plan on that again but I wanted to get it right.Would anyone else do this or shoul i have ate it?
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Mon Mar 11, 2002, 11:43am
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I'm not an expert - just another umpire, but here is my view anyway...
As you know, your problem was you anticipated a swing, instead of seeing the swing. Since you were blocked, you should have asked your partner before making the call. Easy to say in the calm of an internet board, I know. As to should you take back a strike? The purists would say "no" - but since it was all at your own volition, and not in reaction to a ballistic coach or whining player, I don't have a problem with you correcting your own call.
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Mon Mar 11, 2002, 01:07pm
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Quote:
I am not talking judgment. I am talking about not having the best angle. As far as you and I are concerned, the foot or tag was there, but the guy coming out from behind the plate may have had a better angle and saw the foot 4 inches off the bag or a swipe tag that missed by a mile, but the BU thought it was a good tag. What one considers a simple play may not be seeing what one believed they saw.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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