Inning ending mistake

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

I got a third out. 8-7-u in ASA.

Nobody said the runner entered the dugout. Every team I played with would always bring out a runner's glove at the change of the inning.

Long ago, when I started umpiring, there was a coach who used this as a ploy to catch the offense of guard.

If an inning was going a bit long, he would signal his team to hustle off the field on out #2. Half the time, the defender with the ball would just run toward the mound and tag an unsuspecting runner who has walked off the base.

Having played for that coach, I was aware of the play and would always be alert. Never had a problem calling that 3rd out, nor did I have a problem resetting the field if the offense caught on or allowing the additional bases if they were smart enough to safely advance during the charade.

[BretMan]

Had this one last year, in a competetive high school summer league...(ie: they should have known better).

Runner on third. I have one out (which was correct). Batter grounds out, 6-3. F3 rolls ball to the circle and the defense hustles off the field.

Runner at third begins to wander toward her dugout. Third base coach, maybe after noticing that I'm still watching the field, alertly tells runner to "run home!". She does and scores without a play.

Defensive coach gets bent out of shape. Seems to think the whole thing was my fault. Guess he thinks I should have killed the play and protected his team from their own blunder.

Just to be 100% sure, I check both books and both had only two outs (hey, it's not like I've ever missed one before, but had this one right).

Coach is still fuming. My response: "Coach, I didn't say there were three outs and I didn't tell your team to leave the field! They did that all on their own. Get back out there- we have another batter!".

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Had this one last year, in a competetive high school summer league...(ie: they should have known better).

Runner on third. I have one out (which was correct). Batter grounds out, 6-3. F3 rolls ball to the circle and the defense hustles off the field.

Runner at third begins to wander toward her dugout. Third base coach, maybe after noticing that I'm still watching the field, alertly tells runner to "run home!". She does and scores without a play.

Defensive coach gets bent out of shape. Seems to think the whole thing was my fault. Guess he thinks I should have killed the play and protected his team from their own blunder.

Just to be 100% sure, I check both books and both had only two outs (hey, it's not like I've ever missed one before, but had this one right).

Coach is still fuming. My response: "Coach, I didn't say there were three outs and I didn't tell your team to leave the field! They did that all on their own. Get back out there- we have another batter!".

Bret,
I had a similar happening in a high school game a couple of years ago. What turned out to be the winning run scored when the defense dropped the ball in the circle and left the field. A very funny prelude was that the defense's pitching coach had just yelled to the team that there were 2 outs (I only showed 1 and so did my partner). So nobody was nuts enough to say their mistake was our fault - but they did kinda lay into the assistant coach.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Steve M

... A very funny prelude was that the defense's pitching coach had just yelled to the team that there were 2 outs (I only showed 1 and so did my partner)....

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

Originally Posted by Dakota

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

That's coaching, not umpiring. I would only correct the number of outs if I were asked by a coach or a player.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

And THEY have their own coaches who just might be aware of how many outs there really are - it is their job. By your coaching, you have prevented the offense from possibly taking advantage of the defnse's mistake. Call this a mental error by the defense - you have zero business correcting the defense.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

Yes. It is coaching.

[wadeintothem]

This is a new one for me..

I gotta admit, I've never heard umpires claim giving the count or outs is coaching.

Now today, with 2 outs, I heard a coach say "get the lead runner". I didnt say anything, give the outs, or do anything outside my routine.

Now if I had said "look moron, there are 2 outs", that would have been coaching.

Simply giving outs or count is not coaching.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

Respectfully, I must disagree. Both teams have the responsibility to know the situation. I will not give out the outs unless I am asked, then I will give the information for all to hear.

Different wrinkle on the issue: in a situation where there is a scoreboard showing the number of outs, I will take time to try to correct the board or announce the number of outs when the scoreborad is incorrect. My reasoning is that the people running the scoreboard are to some extent an extention of the officiating crew, so really I am cleaning up my own mess. What say you, oh sage blues of the board?

But most of the time I am working of fields without such swank as scoreboards. I do, as a matter of routine, in my usual "patter" behind the plate, say things to the batter and catcher as we set up for the first time during an at bat, "OK, here we go, two down". After that they are on their own.

Going back to the original post, if both teams leave the field, then neither team knew the correct number of outs, so the defense should not gain from this by being awarded a 3rd out, right? I guess a strict interp of the rules quoted by On the other hand, if it was a planned play to catch the offense asleep, you would know it becuase the moment the runnner entered the dugout the opposing team would be very vocal about bringing it to your attention; excited that their trap had worked.

Ernie
ASA/NFHS Anchorage, Alaska

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

My reasoning is that the people running the scoreboard are to some extent an extention of the officiating crew, so really I am cleaning up my own mess. What say you, oh sage blues of the board?

They will say that this, in so many words, is in the ASA umpire manual.

But most of the time I am working of fields without such swank as scoreboards. I do, as a matter of routine, in my usual "patter" behind the plate, say things to the batter and catcher as we set up for the first time during an at bat, "OK, here we go, two down". After that they are on their own.

me too..

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Respectfully, I must disagree. Both teams have the responsibility to know the situation. I will not give out the outs unless I am asked, then I will give the information for all to hear.

Different wrinkle on the issue: in a situation where there is a scoreboard showing the number of outs, I will take time to try to correct the board or announce the number of outs when the scoreborad is incorrect. My reasoning is that the people running the scoreboard are to some extent an extention of the officiating crew, so really I am cleaning up my own mess. What say you, oh sage blues of the board?

But most of the time I am working of fields without such swank as scoreboards. I do, as a matter of routine, in my usual "patter" behind the plate, say things to the batter and catcher as we set up for the first time during an at bat, "OK, here we go, two down". After that they are on their own.

Going back to the original post, if both teams leave the field, then neither team knew the correct number of outs, so the defense should not gain from this by being awarded a 3rd out, right? I guess a strict interp of the rules quoted by On the other hand, if it was a planned play to catch the offense asleep, you would know it becuase the moment the runnner entered the dugout the opposing team would be very vocal about bringing it to your attention; excited that their trap had worked.

Ernie
ASA/NFHS Anchorage, Alaska

Guess I've spent too many years where either a scoreboard was a luxury or a nuisance. Either we didn't have one to go by, or the people running the scoreboard rarely updated it with sufficient frequency that players were all too often confused.

Again, I wouldn't come out and say, "hey, coach... You're wrong." I'd do something along the lines of, "BU, how many outs do you have?" to confirm my count. Heck, maybe *I* have it wrong!

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

Tom,
No - far be it from me to correct what a coach sez to his team - I'm not a coach.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

I dont correct the coach, but when I hear that, I say and signal the correct number of outs.

ie

Coach "OK girls 2 outs".

Me getting set "Here we go 1 down".

if coach batter & catcher dont catch on, thats their problem.

[Little Jimmy]

My umpire didn't indicate whether R1 entered the dugout area. Probably wasn't looking. Let's say she didn't. Let's say she did go close to the dugout, have someone toss her glove to her and then go to her spot on the field. Couldn't base abandonment ( Fed 8-6-22) come in to play in this situation?