Foul Tip/Foul Out

[greymule]

The term foul tip causes so much confusion. It should be renamed a sharp and direct or a bat nip or something that doesn't mention foul.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

The term foul tip causes so much confusion. It should be renamed a sharp and direct or a bat nip or something that doesn't mention foul.

Why? The ball is foul.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why? The ball is foul.

Hmmm...... I'm not convinced that's always true... care to explain?

[greymule]

Why? The ball is foul.

A foul tip usually occurs over and is caught in foul territory, though it doesn't have to be. But as you well know, it's no more a foul ball than a fly ball the left fielder catches in foul territory. The problem is that the word foul is in a term that doesn't refer to a foul ball.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by greymule

Why? The ball is foul.

A foul tip usually occurs over and is caught in foul territory, though it doesn't have to be. But as you well know, it's no more a foul ball than a fly ball the left fielder catches in foul territory. The problem is that the word foul is in a term that doesn't refer to a foul ball.

Are we seeing someone who will have trpouble adapting to a new dialect?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Hmmm...... I'm not convinced that's always true... care to explain?

The batted ball is still "foul" (as in not fair). That batter NEVER becomes a BR on a foul ball or foul tip. The only difference between the two (foul tip/foul ball) is that the runners may still advance and the defense may still attempt to put them out. The only difference for the batter is that it is still a strike unless it is with two in a FP game. Otherwise, it makes no difference whether it is a foul ball or foul tip.

[greymule]

A foul tip is not a foul ball. It meets none of the 7 criteria under the definition. (And don't even try with "C," which does not refer to a caught ball.) A foul tip is not a foul ball that carries a list of exceptions.

Everybody knows that a foul tip is treated exactly like a missed pitch, and in no way whatsoever like a foul ball.

In fact, there is no requirement that a foul tip enter or be over foul territory at any time. (A batter in the front of the box could nip a ball that goes sharp and direct into the catcher's glove while the glove is over home plate. That is not considered a fly ball caught for an out.)

A foul tip is a batted ball. And just like a fly ball the left fielder catches in foul territory, it is not fair, and it is not foul.

That is why I maintain that applying the label foul tip to a ball that is not foul is misleading.

[Steve M]

One of the guys I've worked with even raises the question - "Is there any value in signalling a foul tip? It's just another live ball." And, ya know, I'll signal a foul tip when one happens - but I'm not so sure that there is any value. He raised that question a couple of years ago and I'm still chewing on that.
If F2 moves and catches it before it his the ground, it's a catch & out. If the ball hits the ground, it's just a foul. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Steve M

One of the guys I've worked with even raises the question - "Is there any value in signalling a foul tip? It's just another live ball." And, ya know, I'll signal a foul tip when one happens - but I'm not so sure that there is any value. He raised that question a couple of years ago and I'm still chewing on that.
If F2 moves and catches it before it his the ground, it's a catch & out. If the ball hits the ground, it's just a foul. Hmmmmmmmmm.

I've often pondered that myself.. because it has no value.. but I try to stay in the habit of things in the book so I dont have to hear anything about it.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Steve M

One of the guys I've worked with even raises the question - "Is there any value in signalling a foul tip? It's just another live ball." And, ya know, I'll signal a foul tip when one happens - but I'm not so sure that there is any value. He raised that question a couple of years ago and I'm still chewing on that.
If F2 moves and catches it before it his the ground, it's a catch & out. If the ball hits the ground, it's just a foul. Hmmmmmmmmm.

The NCAA Softball Umpire Manual has this as an optional mechanic.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

A foul tip is not a foul ball. It meets none of the 7 criteria under the definition. (And don't even try with "C," which does not refer to a caught ball.) A foul tip is not a foul ball that carries a list of exceptions.

Now act like you are already in 'Bama and slow down and read what I posted. I specifically noted foul as in not fair. I did not attempt to codify my comment, just making a relation between a ball hit by the bat that qualifies as a foul tip to that of a regular foul ball as it relates to the batter ONLY.

Everybody knows that a foul tip is treated exactly like a missed pitch, and in no way whatsoever like a foul ball.

And the results are the same as a foul ball as it refers to the batter. You cannot ignore that the ball did indeed hit the bat. The point of it being a foul tip is, whether we like it or not, the umpire's judgment.

In fact, there is no requirement that a foul tip enter or be over foul territory at any time. (A batter in the front of the box could nip a ball that goes sharp and direct into the catcher's glove while the glove is over home plate. That is not considered a fly ball caught for an out.)

Don't remember making any such reference.

A foul tip is a batted ball. And just like a fly ball the left fielder catches in foul territory, it is not fair, and it is not foul.

You'll love this. Speaking ASA, by definition, neither a foul tip or a caught fly ball is a "batted ball". A Batted Ball is any pitched ball that hits the bat or is hit by the bat and lands either in fair territory or foul territory. Well, if a ball lands ANYWHERE, it wasn't caught.

In Flight is a term used for any batted, thrown or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object or person other than a fielder. So, if a batted ball is one that must land, how can it be caught in flight?

That is why I maintain that applying the label foul tip to a ball that is not foul is misleading.

Which brings me back to my original comment. The bat hit the ball. Probably more often than not, the indicator is audible. Everyone hears it, so it cannot just be ignored. There has to be some definition and you cannot call it a "missed tip". And since the ball isn't fair......

[Dakota]

How about a tipped ball?

I remember the discussion about the uselessness of the foul tip signal from a couple of years ago. As I recall, bluezebra was the main proponent of signaling strike only.

[CecilOne]

The signal has the value of communicating that the umpire knows the bat hit ball and has judged it to be "sharp & direct"; not foul and a live ball.

A totally missed ball is also neither fair nor foul, so that's what this is, a tipped strike.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

One of the guys I've worked with even raises the question - "Is there any value in signalling a foul tip? It's just another live ball." And, ya know, I'll signal a foul tip when one happens - but I'm not so sure that there is any value. He raised that question a couple of years ago and I'm still chewing on that.
If F2 moves and catches it before it his the ground, it's a catch & out. If the ball hits the ground, it's just a foul. Hmmmmmmmmm.

As noted in another post, the foul tip is often determined by sound. If the foul tip is anywhere near the ground, it is quite possible the catcher is coming up with a cloud of dirt. It can be so close, that sometimes even the catcher isn't sure whether it is a foul tip or foul ball.

Like every other signal we use, it is for those who are not in the immediate vicinity to understand what just occured. It is also an indicator to the teams and coaches of your call and should avoid the "but Blue, she fouled the ball" arguments.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As noted in another post, the foul tip is often determined by sound. If the foul tip is anywhere near the ground, it is quite possible the catcher is coming up with a cloud of dirt. It can be so close, that sometimes even the catcher isn't sure whether it is a foul tip or foul ball.

Like every other signal we use, it is for those who are not in the immediate vicinity to understand what just occured. It is also an indicator to the teams and coaches of your call and should avoid the "but Blue, she fouled the ball" arguments.

In theory..

Today, foul tip, runner stealing I make tip and strike signal. Runner safe. No play made on her.

"Blue was that a foul tip."
"Yes"
"So doesnt the runner have to go back?"


oh boy....