Obstruction question from the NFHS board

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by outathm

What you can tell from the picture is that the defensive player is blocking the front part of the bag and she is not in possession of the ball.

What rule says that is illegal?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

What you can tell from the picture is that the defensive player is blocking the front part of the bag and she is not in possession of the ball.

Your point? There is no rule forbidding a player from blocking the base, with or without the ball.

I would call obstruction and award the runner 3B if she didn't reach it safely.

Why? If the defender catches this ball prior to the runner (assumingly) being blocked by the foot, it is nothing.

Putting your hand out to signal DDB and letting everyone know that you saw the play is similar to the safe when there is a crash w/ nothing to call. It lets coaches and players know that you are seeing what is happening and that you are in the game.

This would be true if there was OBS. However, there are reasons this may not be obstruction and by calling a DDB, you must, but rule, call the runner safe.

I am sure that the obstruction 'call' will lead to nothing, but getting in the habit of calling the obstruction when you see it will lead to a good habit and less of reaction time when it is necc. to call it and make it an award.

I completely agree with this statement, but based upon the information offered, there is no OBS upon which to make a ruling

[Shmuelg]

I don't see obstruction here.

The defensive player (almost) has the ball, and besides, there is enough of the base for the runner's foot to touch - look closely and you'll see it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Shmuelg

I don't see obstruction here.

The defensive player (almost) has the ball, and besides, there is enough of the base for the runner's foot to touch -

That, too, is irrlelvant to a call. The runner may choose which route to take approaching and touching the base. The defense CANNOT attempt to dictate the runner's path.

If the defender's foot is covering just 10% of the base and that is the 10% the runner wants to use, that can be obstruction.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

(being a green blue makes me...what?)

AQUAMAN

Bob

[Blu_IN]

And no one else besides me and one other noticed the ump was out at third base making a call with his hockey mask still on? Tacky.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Blu_IN

And no one else besides me and one other noticed the ump was out at third base making a call with his hockey mask still on? Tacky.

Check post #8 in this thread, plus there were several comments on it on the NFHS board (in fact, the primary topic in the OP on the NFHS board had to do with the helmets... several pictures were referenced there; it just went OT into OBS...)

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

David, you make excellent points, but if I understand you to say that you would not call obstruction if the fielder did not catch the ball and her foot prevented the runner from reaching third, I would have to disagree with you. Even if you have no intention of awarding the runner home, I believe it is necessary to make the call in that situation.

No, you still have to make the obstruction call - if for no other reason to let the participants know you've seen and acknowledged an infraction. But, substantively, in this case, it won't make any difference. If the fielder doesn't catch the ball, she would have been safe anyway, so the base award is completely academic - although the call still has to be made.

This reminds me ...

Confession time: When coaching, we used to teach our pitchers, when covering home on a passed ball with a runner on 3rd, to position themselves so that their foot (not their body) was blocking the runner's access to the plate while waiting for the catcher to retrieve the ball. Even though it was clearly obstruction we figured it this way:

1) If the catcher can't get the ball to the pitcher in time to tag out the runner; what difference does the obstruction violation really make? The runner was going to be safe anyway. The umpire awarding the runner home does no harm.

2) If the catcher can get the ball to the pitcher soon enough to still tag out the runner, it probably isn't obstruction because the pitcher would likely get the ball soon enough so that no reasonable argument can be made that she was blocking the runner's access to the plate. Also, most umpires won't make this call - especially the weaker ones.

3) Some runners are intimidated when they see a base blocked causing them to slow down a bit. This added time may be just what is needed to tag the runner out. Obviously, this would be a case where there is blatant obstruction. But scenario #1 and #2 are more likely, and, many umpires still fail to call obstruction even in this final scenario.

The bottom line is that it is frequently worth the infraction on plays at the plate - especially when the pitcher is involved because the umpires tend to be harsher on catchers. They (the umpires) look for obstruction by the catcher and often ignore a little obstruction by the pitcher. The catcher never did this - this was a pitcher-only thing.

Also, the intent of our pitcher's foot placement wasn't really to block access to the plate as a hard slide would easily knock her foot to the side, rather, it was to simply try to get the runner to slow down. This would usually be the case if the girl wasn't an accomplished or confident slider in the first place.

NOTE: Please spare me the inevitable sanctimonious "shame on you" posts that are sure to follow. "You're teaching your players to cheat!" Blah, blah, blah. It was competitive softball. Everybody knows the rules. We were willing to accept the risk of an obstruction call on the chance of getting an out. That's why there are umpires. They do their job and coaches do their job. If the umpire calls obstruction, then we have to live with it. We accept that without complaint. This was a rare play and I don't ever recall actually gaining any of the advantages described in this post. Usually the runner was very safe or very out. I do recall one time, however, after a runner had scored in this fashion, the plate umpire politely told our pitcher, in a very matter-of-fact way, "You have to get of the way next time," as if she unknowingly was in the runner's way - not realizing that she was doing it on purpose.

As you can probably tell, I never had any difficulty adjusting to wearing either "hat."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Confession time: When coaching, we used to teach our pitchers, when covering home on a passed ball with a runner on 3rd, to position themselves so that their foot (not their body) was blocking the runner's access to the plate while waiting for the catcher to retrieve the ball. Even though it was clearly obstruction we figured it this way:

(snip for brevity)

NOTE: Please spare me the inevitable sanctimonious "shame on you" posts that are sure to follow. "You're teaching your players to cheat!" Blah, blah, blah. It was competitive softball. Everybody knows the rules. We were willing to accept the risk of an obstruction call on the chance of getting an out. That's why there are umpires. They do their job and coaches do their job. If the umpire calls obstruction, then we have to live with it. We accept that without complaint. This was a rare play and I don't ever recall actually gaining any of the advantages described in this post. Usually the runner was very safe or very out. I do recall one time, however, after a runner had scored in this fashion, the plate umpire politely told our pitcher, in a very matter-of-fact way, "You have to get of the way next time," as if she unknowingly was in the runner's way - not realizing that she was doing it on purpose.

As you can probably tell, I never had any difficulty adjusting to wearing either "hat."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Cheat? Yeah, right. My concern is that you were willing to place a young lady's well being in jeopardy for a "well, just maybe" situation. Did you ever try thinking there was an idiot coach in the other dugout, too? You know, the guy/gal that is as equally, if not more agressive with their players. The type that is going to tell the player to attain a base at all cost and if you hurt the opponent, oh well, it's competitive softball!

As an aggressive player, if a defender had the nerve to try and block a base with their foot/leg, the target of my slide was no longer the base, but the player. I've sent a few players off the field in my younger days and I'm not talking about under their own power.

Was it stupid? Hell, yeah, but it was competitive softball. Did I do it as I grew older and wiser? Hell, no. The difference is that I did this as a young adult (and that may be questionable in itself ). You are teaching children who will not know the ramification of listening to a heartless coach until they are in the ambulance.

Yeah, shame on you and any other disingenuous moron masquerading as a coach.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Cheat? Yeah, right. My concern is that you were willing to place a young lady's well being in jeopardy for a "well, just maybe" situation. Did you ever try thinking there was an idiot coach in the other dugout, too? You know, the guy/gal that is as equally, if not more agressive with their players. The type that is going to tell the player to attain a base at all cost and if you hurt the opponent, oh well, it's competitive softball!

As an aggressive player, if a defender had the nerve to try and block a base with their foot/leg, the target of my slide was no longer the base, but the player. I've sent a few players off the field in my younger days and I'm not talking about under their own power.

Was it stupid? Hell, yeah, but it was competitive softball. Did I do it as I grew older and wiser? Hell, no. The difference is that I did this as a young adult (and that may be questionable in itself ). You are teaching children who will not know the ramification of listening to a heartless coach until they are in the ambulance.

Yeah, shame on you and any other disingenuous moron masquerading as a coach.

I love telling that story because it always brings out posts exactly like this. Didn't I predict it?

The pitcher is going to position herself very near the plate anyway - I've seen pitchers actually straddle the plate - which wouldn't be obstruction but I certainly wouldn't recommend it. Being off to the side, with one foot planted on the 3rd base side of the plate poses no physical threat to the pitcher.

I'm just being honest. Coaching and umpiring causes one to have a certain realistic perspective of the dynamics involved between the two. Coaches try to get away with stuff and it's the umpires' job to prevent it. To pretend that this doesn't go on is naive to the extreme. And to view that dynamic as something evil is equally naive.

Umpires have their little bag of self-serving "tricks" they employ to manage the game even if they're not willing to admit the things they ignore or the rules they choose to enforce.

When I umpire, it doesn't bother me in the least when a coach tries to "pull a fast one." I just apply the appropriate rule and calmly enforce it. If everybody does their job - it all works out fine and fairness is maintained.

By the way, my daughter is a pitcher - she's still alive - has never been injured by placing her foot on the 3rd base side of the plate - and just signed a full Div I scholarship to play at Binghamton University.

Thanks for your advice, though. Duly noted.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

I understood that member to be saying that also. I was trying not to raise that point of view to see if anyone else shared that opinion, but since it's now out there I still can not understand how a runner can not be expected to slide in this situation. Especially as a former coach (and I know this shouldn't influence my opinion), I see both the offense and the defense doing exactly what I would have coached...except for the foot placement of F5. Defense has the inside, offense has the outside.

Watch what you say - Mike will call you "heartless."

If the obstruction rule hadn't been changed and made more stringent, everything we're discussing with fielder's little tootsies in front of the bag wouldn't be much of an issue.

We all know that such things have traditionally been allowed for many years in softball (and baseball for that matter). In fact coaches and fans would actually commend a fielder for "blocking out" the runner and tagging her out. Catchers were expected to "take away" part of the plate while awaiting a throw on an impending play. A first baseman would lay down her lag across the bag, completely blocking out the runner, as the catcher attempted a pickoff at 1st. It was all part of the game and everybody accepted it ... until now.

Some umpires still have that old view of obstruction indelibly planted in their brain. And some coaches try to take advantage of that. Which would be expected. It's the umpires' job to force the adjustment to new standards through their enforcement, not the coaches. When the umpires start calling it, the coaches and players will adjust. For better or worse, that's the reality of it.

A ship will maintain its current course until somebody applies a little pressure to the rudder. It's the umpires who have to apply that pressure. It's not the ship's fault that it is remaining on course.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Cheat? Yeah, right. My concern is that you were willing to place a young lady's well being in jeopardy for a "well, just maybe" situation. Did you ever try thinking there was an idiot coach in the other dugout, too? You know, the guy/gal that is as equally, if not more agressive with their players. The type that is going to tell the player to attain a base at all cost and if you hurt the opponent, oh well, it's competitive softball!

Perfect! Crashing a fielder and malicious contact supersede obstruction.

SHE'S OUT!

Just kidding, Mike. But I couldn't resist.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN