Courtesy runner question

[reccer]

David Emerling said a while back:

The DP bats and gets on base. Coach asks for time and wants the FLEX to run for the DP. Since the flex is the pitcher, the coach then wants a courtesy runner for his pitcher. Legal? Yes!

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However, in reviewing Emily's Cactus ump slides, she says:

A courtesy runner must run for the batter who hit the ball - not a sub for that batter

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I will have this scenario this weekend in a tourney with a slow DP and my pitcher being the flex.

Is there a conflict between David and Emily's comments?

If David is correct, seems that all this is costing me is removing the DP one time from the line-up. Further, I seem to be able to do this a second time and although it will remove the DP from the game, the flex (pitcher) has not been affected and my CR still has entry rights for any position.

So, again assuming this is correct, here is how I am reporting to the umpire:

"Blue, that is my DP on base, I am going to drop down to 9 and insert my flex into the batting lineup. Since my flex is the pitcher, I am going to insert a CR for her."

Please let me know what you think, especially the part where I am discussing with the ump what is going on.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by reccer

So, again assuming this is correct, here is how I am reporting to the umpire:

"Blue, that is my DP on base, I am going to drop down to 9 and insert my flex into the batting lineup. Since my flex is the pitcher, I am going to insert a CR for her."

If I am the plate umpire in an NFHS game, I have a short response for you; "No, you are not!"

Courtesy runner rules require that the pitcher (or catcher) must bat and reach base legally in order to be elgible for a CR.

IF - I allowed this to happen, when challenged, your CR would be an illegal substitute (for violating the CR rules) and would be called out and restricted to the bench for the rest of the game.

ASA, however, does not require the player to have earned their way on base, only to be the pitcher or catcher of record at time they got on base. However, IF the FLEX is considered a substitute for the DP, then no CR is allowed under ASA rules. The NFHS is quite clear that replacing a DP with FLEX (or FLEX with DP) is a substitution; the ASA text is less clear.

So - definitely not legal in NFHS; probably not legal in ASA. We will see what knowledgable ASA folks say.

WMB

[Steve M]

Reccer,
Understand first that - from what I read - David is a very good basedball umpire. But he is a softball Dad and has begun to umpire some softball games. He is trying to get an understanding of the rules of softball - he's not there yet. He will be, if he decides that he wants to be.
Emily, on the other hand, speaks with authority in the softball world.

WMB gave you the correct response - what you wanted to do is not permitted.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Echo that. Not legal in NFHS or ASA. NCAA does not allow a courtesy runner.

[CecilOne]

However, a comment about the "must bat" aspect. I believe we have clarified that the P or C must reach base on their own; which would include the designated runner in an ITB.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Echo that. Not legal in NFHS or ASA. NCAA does not allow a courtesy runner.

ASA 8.10.E:

The courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the Designated Player (DP) if the DP is batting for the pitcher or the catcher.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

However, a comment about the "must bat" aspect. I believe we have clarified that the P or C must reach base on their own; which would include the designated runner in an ITB.

No, you are misapplying the ITB rule, if I understand the result of your statement. In both ASA and NFHS (per Mary Struckhoff), the P and C have earned the base in ITB by the same manner as any other position player; the only requirement to "earn their way on base" is to be 9th scheduled batter in the inning. If the designated tiebreak runner by that requirement is the person who was the pitcher or the catcher when the last out was made in the previous half inning, they are eligible for a courtesy runner, assuming one is available.

That is the reason for the apparently redundent wording of "must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base)"; clearly there are ways to earn your way on base without batting and reaching legally. If P batted out of order, she did not reach legally, but is certainly eligible for a courtesy runner at that point; even before a following pitch legalizes the at-bat.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No, you are misapplying the ITB rule, if I understand the result of your statement. In both ASA and NFHS (per Mary Struckhoff), the P and C have earned the base in ITB by the same manner as any other position player; the only requirement to "earn their way on base" is to be 9th scheduled batter in the inning. If the designated tiebreak runner by that requirement is the person who was the pitcher or the catcher when the last out was made in the previous half inning, they are eligible for a courtesy runner, assuming one is available.

That is the reason for the apparently redundant wording of "must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base)"; clearly there are ways to earn your way on base without batting and reaching legally. If P batted out of order, she did not reach legally, but is certainly eligible for a courtesy runner at that point; even before a following pitch legalizes the at-bat.

That's what I said, or at least what I meant; although obviously not clearly and not so eloquently. I was too cryptic about CR being allowed for the ITB runner if a P or C. Mainly trying to point out that "must bat" is as you said, a redundancy for when the P or C lineup spot actually comes up. Thanks for the follow-up.

[reccer]

Thank you all for your timely responses. Saved me from looking foolish.

Particularly helpful was the ITB CR being allowed for the pitcher. I ran into this exact scenario and it worked out for me last weekend.