Time out / LBR

[Chess Ref]

I saw this at a 14U championship game Sunday......Runner steals 2B. She's safe, after the dust clears PU asks for help on a check swing on that pitch. BU comes up with the hammer and a loud "swing". Runner on 2B then starts heading for the dugout. I think she thought she was now called out. BU tells her to get back on the base. Defensive team wants an out for circle violation. PU then tells Defensive coach that time was out during the asking for help. Defensive coach is okay with that.

So my question is, is time automatically out when there is an appeal on a swing or is the ball still live ?

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I saw this at a 14U championship game Sunday......Runner steals 2B. She's safe, after the dust clears PU asks for help on a check swing on that pitch. BU comes up with the hammer and a loud "swing". Runner on 2B then starts heading for the dugout. I think she thought she was now called out. BU tells her to get back on the base. Defensive team wants an out for circle violation. PU then tells Defensive coach that time was out during the asking for help. Defensive coach is okay with that.

So my question is, is time automatically out when there is an appeal on a swing or is the ball still live ?

No, it's not automaticaly an Time Out on a check swing. A check swing isn't even an appeal; it's asking for help. Which CAN be done on a time out and while play is still alive. Rereading my comment: I think it's propper mechanics for PU to call the time, take off the mask and take a view steps towards BU and than point at him and ask him:"(Do you have a) Swing?"
So then you'll have you're time... I can imagine that the propper mechanics will not be showed always...

For the play you saw I have the following feelings:
I'm glad that BU has the common sense to let R2 on 2B, ignoring the fact she left her base. I can see that she was misled by the cry for help by the PU and BU's call for a strike.
I.m.h.o. it's PU's mistake that R2 is mislead!
A PU should never have to ask a check swing at BU, when he's already making a call on 2B. The BU has to focus on his call at 2B, therefore IF he also can see the swing made by B there're 2 sit.'s possible: A) a clear full swing that PU never should have missed or B) BU wasn't looking at his play at 2B, but he was infact watching homeplate and could see the swing...
In both cases a mistake...
Now the PU has to have the knowledge that if he's asking his partner for, he's also bringing him (or himself) in discredit. Don't ask your partner in that case. Here in Europe a check swing mostly isn't even asked when BU is NOT behind 1B (or 3B in a 3-man crew on a lefty)...

If I was the BU in this case the only way to save both my bottom and my partners is not calling a swing. Any def.coach who come's to ask me why I wouldn't give the swing I can tell that I was watching 2B (I had a call there, you know...). And that answer will let my partner look silly, 'cause he asked my help. But only the def.coach will hear my reply to him, so nobody else hear's me saying that PU blew his call...

[3afan]

I dont see how a PU going to his partner on a check swing makes him "look silly", or that he "blew his call". there is no reason the BU does not see the swing while he is moving into position to call the play at 2B from the B position. if I were the PU I'd expect my BU to do that and if I'm asked on a check swing I'm gonna ask him, and I'd expect nothing less than an honest answer back.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

So my question is, is time automatically out when there is an appeal on a swing or is the ball still live ?

No. Yes.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I saw this at a 14U championship game Sunday......Runner steals 2B. She's safe, after the dust clears PU asks for help on a check swing on that pitch. BU comes up with the hammer and a loud "swing". Runner on 2B then starts heading for the dugout. I think she thought she was now called out. BU tells her to get back on the base. Defensive team wants an out for circle violation. PU then tells Defensive coach that time was out during the asking for help. Defensive coach is okay with that.

So my question is, is time automatically out when there is an appeal on a swing or is the ball still live ?

You say 14U championship; I think you are at a point where the players should be expected to grasp what is happening around them. maybe not; you pick where you want to draw the line.

As SRW said, the ball remains alive in most instances of asking for help. In serious championship play, the reality is the player erred, and the penalty for not grasping the difference between "swing" on an appeal, and "out" on the steal, is a LBR violation (there is no rule called a circle violation in any book I use). That said, in lesser ball, you have options.

Option 1: You believe you put the runner in jeopardy; ASA 10.6-C allows the plate umpire to rectify. Doesn't work well in serious play, no reason any knowledgeable player would be fooled.

Option 2: You are empowered to assume time when performing "other duties" under ASA 10.8-B. This will also not work in serious play, as most requests are done live, the plate umpire did not leave his position, and this is more akin to calling a play than performing other duties. The actual wording is "Play will be suspended whenever the plate umpire leaves the umpires position to brush the plate or to perform other duties not directly connected with the calling of plays." In my mind, this is meant to cover activities like writing or reporting lineup changes, situations where the umpire is distracted, not as a catch-all for when you wish you had called time. Nonetheless, you could invoke it, just wouldn't sell it in to a knowledgable coach or UIC. I suspet this is what the PU used in this case.

[Chess Ref]

[QUOTE=AtlUmpSteve]In serious championship play, the reality is the player erred, and the penalty for not grasping the difference between "swing" on an appeal, and "out" on the steal, is a LBR violation (there is no rule called a circle violation in any book I use). That said, in lesser ball, you have options.
[QUOTE]

I should have put a sarcastic face or something when i said circle violation. That is what defensive coach was yelling for.... . I all over there is no circle violation.....

[IRISHMAFIA]

OTOH, the umpire is the one who told the runner to return to the base.

I don't believe it is a stretch to assume the umpire who is responsible for the call considered it confusing or a presumed suspension of play since that, too, would be his call.

Timing may have had a hand in this also, but what it comes down to is what the umpire's judgment and opinion is on the play.