Not calling "Foul ball"

[3afan]

My local chapters have in the past few years have stressed not throwing the hands up and calling "foul ball" on the obvious foul balls. If there is a question or its close then obviously call it via the proper mechanics ... but for those obviously out of play fouls ball what are your chapters having you do?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by 3afan

My local chapters have in the past few years have stressed not throwing the hands up and calling "foul ball" on the obvious foul balls. If there is a question or its close then obviously call it via the proper mechanics ... but for those obviously out of play fouls ball what are your chapters having you do?

I've always been amazed over how big a stink some organizations make over something this is just part of a routine.

If there are runners moving or a player heading for a fence, I'll make sure they hear it no matter how obvious it is to me. Just because I think it's obvious doesn't mean others agree.

If there is no one on and I think of it on a ball way out of the park, I may just be reaching for a ball.

I just don't think an umpire calling a foul batted ball foul is that big a deal.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I've always been amazed over how big a stink some organizations make over something this is just part of a routine.

If there are runners moving or a player heading for a fence, I'll make sure they hear it no matter how obvious it is to me. Just because I think it's obvious doesn't mean others agree.

If there is no one on and I think of it on a ball way out of the park, I may just be reaching for a ball.

I just don't think an umpire calling a foul batted ball foul is that big a deal.

I agree with Mike on this. Everyone should know, not just the umpire.

[WestMichBlue]

Why call the obvious? The ball comes off the bat straight over the backstop and you are throwing up the hands and yelling FOUL or FOUL BALL? A pulled ball ricochets off the dugout and you need to announce it?

You don't verbalize a swinging strike; you don't sound off on routine and very obvious outs at 1B. Do you call out SAFE every time a runner touches home if there is no play there? Why change simply because it is a obvious foul ball?

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Why call the obvious?

What may be obvious to PU may not be obvious to the defender heading full speed toward a fence or concrete wall

The ball comes off the bat straight over the backstop and you are throwing up the hands and yelling FOUL or FOUL BALL?

No, I'm looking for the ball along with the catcher. And I will probably verbalize foul for runners or BR, but be reaching in my bag for another ball to hand to the catcher

A pulled ball ricochets off the dugout and you need to announce it?

Again, if runners are moving, why not? Why wait for them to get to the next base to wait and tell them they have to go back.

You don't verbalize a swinging strike; you don't sound off on routine and very obvious outs at 1B.(now you want to argue volume?) Do you call out SAFE every time a runner touches home if there is no play there? Why change simply because it is a obvious foul ball?

You are correct, well trained umpires are taught adjust (not ignore) the swinging strike and the obvious out, just as we were trained to call foul ball when a ball becomes foul.

What is obvious to an umpire may not be obvious to the players and coaches. I believe at certain levels it also creates an amount of assumption and laziness. The umpire "believes" it is obvious a ball is leaving play, reaches in the bag for another ball and all of a sudden, the RF snags the fly ball the umpire "thought" was obvoiusly leaving the field of play.

As previously noted, WHY is this such a big deal to some people? What harm does it cause to the game? Other than another official, does anyone even notice the call is being made on an obvious foul ball?

If an umpire doesn't call a ball 50' out of play "foul", I'm not going to worry about it, just as I won't worry about it if s/he does. Voice inflection and showboating aside, I don't see any problem here.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Why call the obvious?

I agree!

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Why call the obvious? The ball comes off the bat straight over the backstop and you are throwing up the hands and yelling FOUL or FOUL BALL? A pulled ball ricochets off the dugout and you need to announce it?

You don't verbalize a swinging strike; you don't sound off on routine and very obvious outs at 1B. Do you call out SAFE every time a runner touches home if there is no play there? Why change simply because it is a obvious foul ball?

WMB

I don"t throw up hands normally, [like a TD, or FG], just call foul. Not Foul Ball, cause everyone knows the object is a ball.

All the rest, I will agree with Mike on.

I'm a slow-pitch guy. I call foul ball on EVERYTHING because EVERYONE runs on EVERY hit.

I had a older umpire who does fast-pitch working with me in the open league (the big B and C boys who hit homeruns as if they were singles) tell me anything that goes out of play doesn't need to be verbalized. I said, if I don't verbalize, and Big John there goes flying from 1st to 3rd and is standing on 3rd and sees me telling him to go back to 1st, I hope YOU'RE ready to explain to him why I didn't verbalize it. He said if Big John has a problem with a little thing like that, he won't be finishing the game. I had to ask, how many open league games have you worked? He said this was his first night, since they needed help and the fast-pitch games were covered. My face was blank, but my mind said "good luck".

I know you all are going to razz me over what I just said, but I just had to vent it.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Do you call out SAFE every time a runner touches home...

No, I avoid double calls.

[Andy]

My group does not want the obvious foul balls verbalized or signaled. Now the questions becomes.... define "obvious".

If I remember correctly, NCAA umpire training tried to instill this philosophy a few years ago...don't signal or call the obvious foul balls.

What they found was that the definition of "obvious" varied greatly from umpire to umpire. Coaches were complaining that balls that landed a foot outside the foul lines were not being called or signaled. Again, if I remember correctly, the NCAA umpires manual had to put some verbiage in something like..."any ball that lands within approx four feet of a foul line on either side must be signaled if fair and signaled and verbalized if foul."

So it may be to your benefit to have your group provide some guidelines around what is considered an "obvious" foul ball.

Remember...common sense isn't.....

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

My group does not want the obvious foul balls verbalized or signaled. Now the questions becomes.... define "obvious".

If I remember correctly, NCAA umpire training tried to instill this philosophy a few years ago...don't signal or call the obvious foul balls.

What they found was that the definition of "obvious" varied greatly from umpire to umpire. Coaches were complaining that balls that landed a foot outside the foul lines were not being called or signaled. Again, if I remember correctly, the NCAA umpires manual had to put some verbiage in something like..."any ball that lands within approx four feet of a foul line on either side must be signaled if fair and signaled and verbalized if foul."

So it may be to your benefit to have your group provide some guidelines around what is considered an "obvious" foul ball.

Remember...common sense isn't.....

I believe that the NCAA philosophy has trickled down to other associations, where "if it is what we do in college" becomes an assumption of good umpiring. Unfortunately, the trickle down in the attention span of rec coaches and rec umpires doesn't match that thought process.

In NCAA softball, umpires are to take a secondary role to the coaches. The coaches control every aspect of the game, other than judgment and rule applications (although, many or most try to control that, too). Umpires are not to presume to tell players that a ball is foul, or communicate with a player in any way that isn't a required call or signal; because the coaches are the only people allowed to communicate with the players directly. And, if it is obvious, umpires shouldn't presume that the coach is unaware of the obvious. The result is that players often run and slide unnecessarily, but that is what the NCAA coaches want; total control, with subservient umpires.

In most associations, the NCAA umpires are (obviously) the best, the officers, the trainers, or, at least, the role models. This specific example of NCAA mechanics is often NOT what is best at high school or rec levels; the caliber of players, coaches, and umpires does not lend itself to the same philosophy. These players and coaches need for umpires to be more vocal, more demonstrative, and to protect them from themselves, even. "Obvious" obviously changes with the level of play.

As one who does NCAA, I know I now signal and vocalize less often in other levels of softball; but I do communicate whenever I think I should to benefit the players and coaches. I know it makes it harder to remember to NOT do it in NCAA, or when being evaluated, but I try to find a middle ground based on the level of ball I am doing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In most associations, the NCAA umpires are (obviously) the best, the officers, the trainers, or, at least, the role models.

Not to take away any of the accomplishments of those who work NCAA ball, but I have to disagree that is it a given that these umpires are the best, and not just in softball. It isn't the association that makes the umpire, it is the person inside the uniform.

Even though it sometimes feels as if it is, officiating is not our fulltime job. There are many officials which have job and family commitments that prohibit them from working NCAA ball, just as it does working HS ball in some areas. That does not make them any less an umpire. I have some very good umpires in my area. Some work NCAA, some do not. Some who work NCAA place themselves above the rest, and others will move from NCAA to pro to international to co-rec SP to HS FP to JO tournament and back to NCAA within a week. To me, the latter is the role model.

And being a good umpire does not lock you into a place with NCAA ball. A great part of getting decent assignments, if any at all, is an umpire's ability to interact with the coaches along the way. Sometimes, it isn't that easy and right or wrong, some assignors will take their marching orders from the conferences/schools which pay them or someone else may be getting those calls the following year. These folks have one of the hardest jobs to do as it is a very thin line they must walk.

Sorry, didn't mean to get carried away. Steve makes some good points, just wanted to add a little clarification.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In NCAA softball, umpires are to take a secondary role to the coaches. The coaches control every aspect of the game, other than judgment and rule applications (although, many or most try to control that, too). Umpires are not to presume to tell players that a ball is foul, or communicate with a player in any way that isn't a required call or signal; because the coaches are the only people allowed to communicate with the players directly. And, if it is obvious, umpires shouldn't presume that the coach is unaware of the obvious. The result is that players often run and slide unnecessarily, but that is what the NCAA coaches want; total control, with subservient umpires.

Is this the thinking when it comes time to discuss calls the coaches disagree with? That the umpire is subserviant?

[IamMatt]

Here I go again, looking to the book for an answer. Regarding balls and strikes, ASA says, "Every pitch is called a strike or a ball. Umpires don't remain silent when a pitch is ruled a ball."

It is a little less black-and-white with foul balls. Mostly the book discusses determining fair-or-foul on close ones down the foul lines; ASA says, "...on all foul balls, except a caught fly ball, the DEAD BALL signal is given." so I guess that says you should be signalling every foul ball, but not necessarily with the FOUL BALL signal, unless they mean that instruction to only refer to balls hit down the foul line. Glad it is so clear.

As a coach, I like decisive, consistent calls. If I don't hear a call or see a signal, I don't have to guess whether it is because I missed it, or if it was a "silent" call. We coaches aren't that smart, remember, and we need all the help we can get.

[NM FP Ump]

Early on in my experience I was calling a fp game where I was BU and the PU would not verbalize foul balls. Between innings I asked him if he would please verbalize them for me, and his reply was, "I give the signal for foul ball and I will verbalize the borderline foul ball, but on the routine foul balls, I just do a signal." I am a rookie, so I go along with his routine....until later in the game when a high inside pitch is swung at. The catcher puts her glove up and the ball touches her glove and goes to the backstop. Catcher moves to her left to retrieve the ball and PU puts his hands up because he lost balance when the catcher bumped into him. I tell the baserunner going from 2nd to 3rd, "it's a foul ball" and she goes back to 2nd. Well, I got my ear chewed by the OC for a foul ball call on a passed ball. I learned my lesson then and there: Call all foul balls "foul" as a PU, don't call any balls "foul" as a BU.