How to not sell a call...

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Tex

I saw a tag afterwards by the catcher, but do not see an appeal to the umpire.

That tag WAS an appeal to the umpire!

Personally, I have no issues with how this umpire handled the play. The real problem is the video replay. The replays linked in the OP are inconclusive, so people will bring their own bias into it. This 'controversy' would still be there regardless of how the PU handled it.

As it was, there initially was no play, so no signal. When it became apparent that F2 was going to appeal for a missed base, PU signalled safe. That's all good by me.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Speaking softball, this is correct only if the runner did not touch the plate. Trying to keep this non-specific wrt who the umpire is (and his reputation for delayed calls) and the fact that it is baseball, if the umpire saw the runner touch the base, the runner was safe at that instant. To then wait to see if the catcher regains control of the ball and to only make the safe call as the catcher is moving to make the tag is inviting controversy, IMO. Some sort of theatrics / sell call on the part of the umpire would have helped, IMO.

Helped what?

No member of the defensive team even complained.

The manager said he thought the runner touched the plate.

The whole "controversy" was media generated by the TV guys.

The umpire, when interviewed by the media, said he was in position to see the play, saw the hand touch the plate, and processed the entire sequence before signaling safe.

Who among us would not be satisfied in making a call that ends a big game after being in the right position to see the play enfold and then walking off with no arguments?

Guys, I agree with IRISHMAFIA that if you look at the backstop angle of the play, it's possible that the runner did touch the corner of the plate with his hand. Matter of fact, I was able to run the play very slowly over and over and it looks like he DID touch it. Almost like a magician's touch to it.

As for the umpire's mechanics in this play, it would have screamed indecisive, but like someone said, McClelland can be slow with some of his calls. I've seen him work some games in Kansas City (and I know MLB got the call right when they overturned him on the pine tar incident), and he is deliberately slow to some of his calls, such as as the routine out at first base. Many times he doesn't even make the signal till the runner is coming to a stop in the outfield.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

(and I know MLB got the call right when they overturned him on the pine tar incident),

Say what? McClelland got boned on that reversal and that is pretty much indisputable.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Say what? McClelland got boned on that reversal and that is pretty much indisputable.

I agree. The AL prez and league office hung him out to dry on that one.

Look at the pine tar incident this way...Billy Martin waited till Brett touched the plate after he hit the homerun to appeal the bat. He didn't say anything before because he wanted to take away a game-winning homerun. It's pretty known in baseball historian circles that Steinbrenner had directed Martin to act that way, wait till they would have lost the game before appealing. It wasn't the AL president who overturned McClelland's call, it was the Major League office.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

what a STUPID angle--of course martin waited until it was too his advantage to appeal!! dont you ever have a mgr wait until the RIGHT moment to appeal a BOO when he can get a OUT and not too early (thus only geting another batter inherating the count)??

what does the TIMING of when he apealed have JACK to do with its validity?? you canot be serious as mr McEnroe used to say

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Look at the pine tar incident this way...Billy Martin waited till Brett touched the plate after he hit the homerun to appeal the bat. He didn't say anything before because he wanted to take away a game-winning homerun. It's pretty known in baseball historian circles that Steinbrenner had directed Martin to act that way, wait till they would have lost the game before appealing. It wasn't the AL president who overturned McClelland's call, it was the Major League office.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Look at the pine tar incident this way...Billy Martin waited till Brett touched the plate after he hit the homerun to appeal the bat. He didn't say anything before because he wanted to take away a game-winning homerun.

Like he knew there was going to be a game-winning home run. And so what? Brett's bat was in violation, and the penalty was quite clear. End of story.

It's pretty known in baseball historian circles that Steinbrenner had directed Martin to act that way, wait till they would have lost the game before appealing.

According to Yankee players, it was Graig Nettles. Steinbrenner is an a$$ and it doesn't take a baseball historian to figure that out. I don't believe he could come to that decision if his wallet depended on it. BTW, really don't believe what most baseball "historians" spout. Many still believe in Abner Doubleday and baseball being a true American game.

It wasn't the AL president who overturned McClelland's call, it was the Major League office.

Actually, it was Lee McPhail who ignored the rules and declared the ruling didn't meet the "spirit of the rule". I think McPhail must have been drinking some spirits to make such a fool-hardy decision.

And now all of baseball says that pine tar that goes above the 17 inches (is that the limit) isn't illegal...because no advantage is gained from that. Matter of fact, if there's pine tar that high up on the bat, pretty stupid move, since the ball would stick a bit if it hit that spot.

Actually, it was Lee McPhail who ignored the rules and declared the ruling didn't meet the "spirit of the rule". I think McPhail must have been drinking some spirits to make such a fool-hardy decision.

McPhail wasn't drinking...the Commissioner's office TOLD him to make THAT decision.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

. It wasn't the AL president who overturned McClelland's call, it was the Major League office.

Back in those days it was the responsibility of the each league to make these decisions. I will cite the case below as a reference for you(I added the emphasis):

"Brett had injuries on-and-off for the next four years, during which occurred the most notable event in his career, the notorious "Pine Tar Incident". On July 24, 1983, the Royals were playing the Yankees at Yankee Stadium. In the top of the ninth inning, Brett came up to bat against Goose Gossage, his old rival. Brett hit a two-run homer to put the Royals up 5-4. After Brett rounded the bases, Yankees manager Billy Martin calmly walked out of the dugout and used home plate to measure the amount of pine tar, a legal substance used by hitters to improve their grip, on Brett's bat. Martin cited an obscure rule that stated the pine tar on a bat could extend no further than 18 inches. Brett's pine tar extended about 24 inches. Earlier in the season, the Yankees had noted Brett's habit of adding pine tar further than the allowed 18 inches, but waited until a crucial time to point it out to the umpires.

"I've never seen this," said sportscaster and ex-Yankee Bobby Murcer on WPIX as he watched McClelland measure the bat across the plate. "I never have either," said Murcer's partner, Frank Messer. A few moments later, the home plate umpire, Tim McClelland, signaled Brett out.

The normally mild-mannered Brett charged out of the dugout, enraged, and was immediately ejected. An incredulous Messer:

“ Look at this!...He is out, and having to be forcibly restrained from hitting plate umpire Tim McClelland. And the Yankees have won the ball game 4 to 3! ”

Years later, Brett explained his outburst by saying "It was just such an extraordinary thing to hit a homer off [Gossage], the thought of losing it was too much". In the same interview he also humorously chided his teammate Hal McRae (who was on deck) for not removing the bat from home plate before Billy Martin could have it inspected. "If Hal had [taken the bat], then I'd only be known for hemorrhoids," Brett quipped.[3]

The Royals protested the game, and their protest was upheld by AL president (and former Yankees chief executive) Lee MacPhail, who ruled that the bat was not "altered to improve the distance factor," and that the rules only provided for removal of the bat from the game, and not calling the batter out.

The game was continued later that season, starting after Brett's homer. Billy Martin had one last trick up his sleeve, appealing the play in saying the umpires had no way of knowing Brett and the other runner had touched all the bases. Martin was stunned when the umpires produced affidavits saying they had. The game had virtually no effect on 1983's pennant race, but was in many ways the closing chapter on a heated rivalry. The Pine Tar Game has become part of baseball folklore, with Brett's famous bat on display at the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York."



If you are interested, you can read the article in its entirety here.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

McPhail wasn't drinking...the Commissioner's office TOLD him to make THAT decision.

Were you there? Could you please cite a credible reference to support this supposition?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

And now all of baseball says that pine tar that goes above the 17 inches (is that the limit) isn't illegal...because no advantage is gained from that. Matter of fact, if there's pine tar that high up on the bat, pretty stupid move, since the ball would stick a bit if it hit that spot.

Doesn't make any difference what the rules are now, the rules then were that it was illegal to add anything to the bat that was not approved, just as it is to tape a softball bat more than 15" from the knob.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Back in those days it was the responsibility of the each league to make these decisions. I will cite the case below as a reference for you(I added the emphasis):

"Brett had injuries on-and-off for the next four years, during which occurred the most notable event in his career, the notorious "Pine Tar Incident". On July 24, 1983, the Royals were playing the Yankees at Yankee Stadium. In the top of the ninth inning, Brett came up to bat against Goose Gossage, his old rival. Brett hit a two-run homer to put the Royals up 5-4. After Brett rounded the bases, Yankees manager Billy Martin calmly walked out of the dugout and used home plate to measure the amount of pine tar, a legal substance used by hitters to improve their grip, on Brett's bat. Martin cited an obscure rule that stated the pine tar on a bat could extend no further than 18 inches. Brett's pine tar extended about 24 inches. Earlier in the season, the Yankees had noted Brett's habit of adding pine tar further than the allowed 18 inches, but waited until a crucial time to point it out to the umpires.

"I've never seen this," said sportscaster and ex-Yankee Bobby Murcer on WPIX as he watched McClelland measure the bat across the plate. "I never have either," said Murcer's partner, Frank Messer. A few moments later, the home plate umpire, Tim McClelland, signaled Brett out.

The normally mild-mannered Brett charged out of the dugout, enraged, and was immediately ejected. An incredulous Messer:

“ Look at this!...He is out, and having to be forcibly restrained from hitting plate umpire Tim McClelland. And the Yankees have won the ball game 4 to 3! ”

Years later, Brett explained his outburst by saying "It was just such an extraordinary thing to hit a homer off [Gossage], the thought of losing it was too much". In the same interview he also humorously chided his teammate Hal McRae (who was on deck) for not removing the bat from home plate before Billy Martin could have it inspected. "If Hal had [taken the bat], then I'd only be known for hemorrhoids," Brett quipped.[3]

The Royals protested the game, and their protest was upheld by AL president (and former Yankees chief executive) Lee MacPhail, who ruled that the bat was not "altered to improve the distance factor," and that the rules only provided for removal of the bat from the game, and not calling the batter out.

The game was continued later that season, starting after Brett's homer. Billy Martin had one last trick up his sleeve, appealing the play in saying the umpires had no way of knowing Brett and the other runner had touched all the bases. Martin was stunned when the umpires produced affidavits saying they had. The game had virtually no effect on 1983's pennant race, but was in many ways the closing chapter on a heated rivalry. The Pine Tar Game has become part of baseball folklore, with Brett's famous bat on display at the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York."



If you are interested, you can read the article in its entirety here.

Thanks for the research.

I remember the play well and also the fact that McClelland pointed out that Brett was not called out for an illegal bat but the more creative " illegal batted ball." MacPhail used common sense in upholding the Royals' protest.