Sell this one!

[Nevadaref]

NFHS game:
Visitor is ahead by 2 with 3.2 seconds remaining. They are shooting two FTs. The home team has one time-out remaining. The home coach informs the Trail (3 man crew) that he is going ask for a time-out when his team gets the ball across half-court. The official tells him, "Okay, coach, I'll look for your request."

Visitor misses BOTH FTs. Home grabs the rebound and throws an outlet pass to a guard near the FT line extended. She proceeds to advance the ball against defensive pressure. She crosses the division line with 0.6 seconds on the clock and the coach immediately asks for the time-out. Since the official was looking for the request, he blows the whistle right away.
Just after the whistle, the player ends her dribble and shoots. While the ball is in the air, the horn sounds!
The ball goes in the basket.


Should tomorrow's headline read, "Coach costs his team the game"?

[jritchie]

tough break for the team and the coach!! All we can do is what is asked of us, nothing else could of been done, Will make for a good headline though, and i think you nailed it...

[David B]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
NFHS game:
Visitor is ahead by 2 with 3.2 seconds remaining. They are shooting two FTs. The home team has one time-out remaining. The home coach informs the Trail (3 man crew) that he is going ask for a time-out when his team gets the ball across half-court. The official tells him, "Okay, coach, I'll look for your request."

Visitor misses BOTH FTs. Home grabs the rebound and throws an outlet pass to a guard near the FT line extended. She proceeds to advance the ball against defensive pressure. She crosses the division line with 0.6 seconds on the clock and the coach immediately asks for the time-out. Since the official was looking for the request, he blows the whistle right away.
Just after the whistle, the player ends her dribble and shoots. While the ball is in the air, the horn sounds!
The ball goes in the basket.


Should tomorrow's headline read, "Coach costs his team the game"?

Well, if he blew the whistle as you stated, that's the headline ...

That's also why, even though I know the coach wants a request that I have some built in lag time with my whistle as far as coaches asking for timeouts etc.,

I've had several times with similiar plays, coach yelling for a TO and by the time I acknowledge and am able to blow something good happnes -

of course, then I always ask, "coach do you still want your TO?"

And they usually just have a big grin ...

Thansk
David

[Ref Daddy]

Hard Sell? Not by you.

Was your Clock- keeper "on the ball" and aware?
Who won?
Did you put .6 back on the clock?
How'd you determine it was that fraction of a second?
What did the coach's say?
Was the Coach visable with his T-O request (for players and fans's)?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy

Hard Sell? Not by you.

Was your Clock- keeper "on the ball" and aware?
Who won?
Did you put .6 back on the clock?
How'd you determine it was that fraction of a second?
What did the coach's say?
Was the Coach visable with his T-O request (for players and fans's)?

Daddy, the rules won't let you put any time back on the clock. That was Nevada's point. Legal lag-time allowed is 1.0 second. Game over. Hasta la vista.

[blindzebra]

Lag time is dependent on the official seeing the clock as the whistle blew.

If the whistle blows and then the official sees the time, time SHOULD be corrected to the time the official saw, as lag time is interpreted to have occurred during the interval of whistle to look.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Lag time is dependent on the official seeing the clock as the whistle blew.

If the whistle blows and then the official sees the time, time SHOULD be corrected to the time the official saw, as lag time is interpreted to have occurred during the interval of whistle to look.

Oh? That ain't what case book play 5.10.1SitD(b) says.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh? That ain't what case book play 5.10.1SitD(b) says.

COMMENT: Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start the clock as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the “reaction” time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock.

Like I said whistle with look together 1 second may run off. Whistle THEN look, put the time back that was on at the look.

Nevada never stated specifically when the official looked to see .6, so both options may be in play.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by David B

Well, if he blew the whistle as you stated, that's the headline ...

That's also why, even though I know the coach wants a request that I have some built in lag time with my whistle as far as coaches asking for timeouts etc.,

I've had several times with similiar plays, coach yelling for a TO and by the time I acknowledge and am able to blow something good happnes -

of course, then I always ask, "coach do you still want your TO?"

And they usually just have a big grin ...

Thansk
David

If this happened 99 more times and you held your whistle even a second, then you'da had a coach to deal with who'd already told you his wishes and you chose to hold your whistle.

[RookieDude]

JR...I have seen you and blindzebra kind of dance around this subject of timing before on this forum.

I have read JR's cited case plays and have read blindzebra's (5.10.1 SITUATIONB: COMMENT)

If there wasn't a rule on this timing/lag thing...I would just like to think I was using common sense if I put up the time I actually saw (definite knowledge) on the clock before the horn sounds.

I think blindzebra has found a "loophole" in the rules to do just that. In Nevada's scenario, I would feel much better putting the .6 seconds on the clock. That doesn't neccessarily make it right...I would just feel better.

Using JR's cited rules the time would not be put on the clock...and this would be correct.

Using blindzebra's cited "loophole" the time would be put back on the clock.

In Nevada's scenario we have the same thing happening on the court...to the player...to the coach...to the team. But, yet the same scenario on a different night could have different rulings because of when the official did or did not look at the clock.

This seems inconsistent to me...I like the "loophole" in this case...and would probably put the time I saw on the clock, since I saw the clock after I sounded the whistle.

Thoughts?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Thoughts?

Sure. There should be a rule change that states, "When the game clock shows tenths of a second and the clock does not stop with the official's whistle, the official is allowed to put the exact time that was showing when s/he first looked at the clock at or after the sounding of the whistle back on the game clock, provided s/he has definite knowledge."

I'm sure that could be worded better. But the point is, when tenths of a second are showing, you put back whatever time you saw, regardless of when you looked at the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Sure. There should be a rule change that states, "When the game clock shows tenths of a second and the clock does not stop with the official's whistle, the official is allowed to put the exact time that was showing when s/he first looked at the clock at or after the sounding of the whistle back on the game clock, provided s/he has definite knowledge."

I'm sure that could be worded better. But the point is, when tenths of a second are showing, you put back whatever time you saw, regardless of when you looked at the clock.

But until that rule is changed, game over.

[Ref Daddy]

SECTION 10 TIMER'S MISTAKES
ART. 1 . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.

[Ref Daddy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Daddy, the rules won't let you put any time back on the clock. That was Nevada's point. Legal lag-time allowed is 1.0 second. Game over. Hasta la vista.

You sure JR?

I re-read the post.
Whistle blew
Time verified
No foul reported (indicated or described)

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

But until that rule is changed, game over.

Where in the play given were the words,"The official was looking at the clock when they whistled the timeout and the clock read.6?

By rule, if the whistle blew at.7 and the official looked at the clock at .6 and the clock ran out, .6 is put back on the clock.

The interval of whistle to look is judged lag time and it does not matter if it is 1 second or 1 tenth.

As I stated before, Nevada's play can be game over or team A's ball with .6 left, it all depends on when the official saw the clock.