Stupid rule...

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Yes, but you know how coaches can be - and they would certainly try to come up with different ways to bend the rule. You know the whole inch into a mile thing . . .

Yes, I understand, but it is very sad that the kid was within one out of pitching a no-hitter in the LLWS and was removed from the game.

There should be SOME wiggle room for the LLWS.

Drop the pitch count to 80, but allow the pitcher to finish the inning.

Ignore the pitch count (coach's discretion) for a no-hitter.

Something.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I'll tell you what I'd like to see in the NCAA Softball College World Series, however: Something that forces a team to bring in a 2nd pitcher at some point in the tournament....

Yeah. The NCAA should also require the football teams to play at least one series with the second string QB; the basketball teams to limit centers to 35 minutes; hockey teams to require the use of two goal tenders, etc.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Pitching is disproportionately a critical element of the game in fastpitch softball. When balancing the importance of good hitting and good defense, pitching tips the scales to a huge degree.

This is a bad thing because...?

That's the way FP has ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS (I hope) be. If you want T-ball, go to a local league and watch. It's exciting. If you have leagues where every kid bats every inning, you could have an inning with two quadruple plays. I know...been there, seen with own eyes.

If you want offense, go see some SP.

FP is a different animal. The game may well evolve into something different, perhaps during our lifetimes, perhaps later. FP now is much the way baseball was 120 years ago.

[NewNCref]

Dakota,

I agree with you that it stinks that this kid got pulled when he was pitching a no-hitter. But I think part of the problem with putting in an exception is that, at the local level, it would be abused and difficult to enforce. For example, I'm sure we've all had those games where there are a thousand errors (or at least that's what it seems like). Does the game where the defense is stinking it up but the pitcher hasn't technically given up a hit still count? Well, it would be hard to word it so that it didn't, but no one is really interested in preserving that "no-hitter." Not to mention, what happens when one score keeper scores something an error and the other scores it a hit. It's just a big mess.

LL says that this rule is to prevent overuse, and regardless or whether that is true or not, if that's what they're going by, then it only makes sense to strictly limit pitchers to a certain number of pitches.

It varies by players, but unfortunately, there are coaches that are more interested in another win than the health and safety of their pitchers. Furthermore, there are coaches, more so at the local level than the LLWS level, that simply don't know that much about it, and could unknowingly be hurting their pitcher.

[Dakota]

Doesn't LL already have different rules in the tournament than in regular league play? (Participation rules, for example)? An adjustment to the pitch count rule could be made to only apply to the final 16 tournament, where presumably defenses are better and there is an official scorekeeper.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

FP now is much the way baseball was 120 years ago.

You mean, when a batter could call for a high or low pitch, and the pitcher had to deliver it to him, and when it took seven balls to issue a walk? Or, if you are talking about scoring, you mean when the Baltimore Orioles scored an average of 14 runs per game, which is far more than any other team in the 20th and 21st centuries? Or, are you talking about when the Chicago Colts(Cubs) scored 36 runs in one game?

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

This is a bad thing because...?

Because it practically makes it an INDIVIDUAL sport that masquerades as a TEAM sport.

I realize what I suggested (force a 2nd pitcher's participation) will never happen.

The example you give of quarterbacks and goalies is invalid when compared to fastpitch softball.

Football and hockey teams often overcome the lack of a superstar as either their quarterback or goalie. One comes to mind instantly - the 2001 Super Bowl champions, the Baltimore Ravens, with Trent Dilfer at the helm. They won despite him, not because of him. They were so impressed with his abilities to "lead" them to a Super Bowl championship that they promptly traded before the commencement of the next season.

You'll see no such examples in fastpitch softball.

It's nearly impossible to win a fastpitch championship with a dominating defense. Good hitting will often cause you to come up short if your pitching is only "good", but not GREAT. Average pitching gets you nowhere even with tremendous defense and hitting.

But this is just the nature of fastpitch softball, for better or worse. True fans of the game, of which I am one, accept this as an unavoidable reality. Functionally, a team needs but one pitcher. The other pitcher is only "needed" to pitch inconsequential games, games in which the outcome is predetermined regardless who pitches because of the disparity in the teams, or should the ace pitcher get injured.

In most team sports you can win with a superior element of your game, whether it be defense or offense. Sometimes it's a combination of the two. But seldom is it a particular individual on whom the team relies, game after game after game.

As great as Peyton Manning was, he eventually won his team a Super Bowl. But he was dangerously close to being dubbed another Marino, a great player who could never win the "big one."

Fastpitch softball becomes very interesting when the opposing pitchers are BOTH superstars because this is the rare time when those other elements come into play. But sadly, the game is usually such a low-scoring affair (ala soccer), that the result often hinges on some quirky, or unfortunate event that does not really reveal that one team is better than another, rather, that one team is simply luckier than the other - at least for this game.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Steve M]

"In short, I'd like to see some more pitching depth in the College World Series. I'm not sure how that can be done, however."

David,
The reason you won't ever see this happen is that the college coaches write the rules, and their job is to win. They're going to do what they can to win enough to advance as far as they can.

[Steve M]

"But this is just the nature of fastpitch softball, for better or worse. True fans of the game, of which I am one, accept this as an unavoidable reality. Functionally, a team needs but one pitcher. The other pitcher is only "needed" to pitch inconsequential games, games in which the outcome is predetermined regardless who pitches because of the disparity in the teams, or should the ace pitcher get injured."

Pitching does dominate, you're right. And I can't think of anywhere I'd rather be - officiating wise, anway - than on the plate in a men's major game. Most of the big time men's major teams have 3+ pitchers. One may be the one who gets the ball in must-win games, but the others get plenty of work.
A close friend of mine got to regularly work the plate for the Eddie Feigner-Ty Stofflet games. He's much older than me - but it had to have been awesome with the slow guy throwing around 105.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Steve M

"But this is just the nature of fastpitch softball, for better or worse. True fans of the game, of which I am one, accept this as an unavoidable reality. Functionally, a team needs but one pitcher. The other pitcher is only "needed" to pitch inconsequential games, games in which the outcome is predetermined regardless who pitches because of the disparity in the teams, or should the ace pitcher get injured."

Pitching does dominate, you're right. And I can't think of anywhere I'd rather be - officiating wise, anway - than on the plate in a men's major game. Most of the big time men's major teams have 3+ pitchers. One may be the one who gets the ball in must-win games, but the others get plenty of work.
A close friend of mine got to regularly work the plate for the Eddie Feigner-Ty Stofflet games. He's much older than me - but it had to have been awesome with the slow guy throwing around 105.

Dang! 105mph???

I can't imagine what that must look like.

That's something I have very little experience with - men's fastpitch. You just don't see too many leagues like that. I know they exist - just none around here.

What distance are they pitching from?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

You mean, when a batter could call for a high or low pitch, and the pitcher had to deliver it to him, and when it took seven balls to issue a walk? Or, if you are talking about scoring, you mean when the Baltimore Orioles scored an average of 14 runs per game, which is far more than any other team in the 20th and 21st centuries? Or, are you talking about when the Chicago Colts(Cubs) scored 36 runs in one game?

None of the above. Not even taking nine balls (which it really didn't...nor did it really take seven...and I can explain if you want) for a base on balls.

No...I mean when the pitchers were at 50 feet and no one was scoring hardly ANY runs.

And...the game in which the Colts scored all those runs was against the Louisville team which soon had the manager and five players expelled from baseball for inveterate gambling and throwing games. You'll find that a hall of famer then became their managers...and the Louisvillians were usurped by a team...and the rest is history.

If memory serves me right (and I could Google it, but that would be cheating since the rest of this has all come from memory), the Orioles scored all those runs when the distance was first moved to 60'6" (which was NOT a surveryor's mistake). Once the pitchers adjusted, it was all downhill.

Just as baseball exploded the year the pitchers moved back to 60 feet, we can expect something similar if NFHS goes to 43.

Want more offense in college? It will not happen anytime soon, but just move the pitchers back another three feet -- or seven feet to a full 50.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Dang! 105mph???

I can't imagine what that must look like.

That's something I have very little experience with - men's fastpitch. You just don't see too many leagues like that. I know they exist - just none around here.

What distance are they pitching from?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Better look quick, David.
Men pitch from 46 feet. Women pitch from 43 feet, and girls from 40 feet.
I've had one throwing 102 and his counterpart in the low-mid 90's. But I've never had two who were both that fast - and thankfully, at thoat level, they have outstanding control.
Let's see - Memphis. How close is that to St Louis? There's some pretty good ball there, or at least a couple of really solid teams. Men's fast pitch in general is dying - if not dead in most areas. And good men's fast pitch is even tougher to find.

As a late addition - these guys can hurt somebody when they throw change-ups.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

The example you give of quarterbacks and goalies is invalid when compared to fastpitch softball.

Uhhhhhh...I didn't say that. Someone else did, and they should receive the proper attribution because (in my humble opinion) it was very valid.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

The example you give of quarterbacks and goalies is invalid when compared to fastpitch softball.

It's valid if you put "NCAA" in front of all those, which is what you said. You are never going to get a participation rule into Div 1 varsity sports. If you want more offense, it'll have to be done another way.

[fastpitch]

Many of our rec leagues in the area limit a pitcher to 3 or 4 innings in 10U and 12U. This is done to encourage the development of multiple pitchers and grow the league and has nothing to do with limiting due to potential injury. This encourages the coaches to develop more than one pitcher as they have a difficult time winning with one.

The shame is we have the other side of the coin where the coaches come out and pitch to prevent walks in some weaker parks - in some respects you get what you expect.

The title of this thread is right on the money - stupid rule. I'd have to say the sanctity of the game is damaged when you take a kid out within one K of a perfect game. Yes, I've heard of similar issues with the rec leagues limiting innings.

Now common sense tells me that after pitching batting practice to the baseball team once or twice and the suffering that ensues versus pitching batting practice to a softball team fastpitch underhanded for an entire travel season without worries ought to tell us something even if it is an old man doing it.