Infield Fly question

[Julio Caliente]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I am wondering how these two explained themselves to the OC.

I have no idea on that explanation, but after some of the things the UIC told them and the way they took it I am going to say not too good.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Are you also saying that the Infield Fly Rule cannot be invoked if a ball, easily catchable by an infielder, is actually caught by an outfielder - For instance, a high popup just a few steps behind F4, is caught by F9 who calls F4 off?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

He's an idiot, and I'm all for the dogpile... but unfortunately that's not what he said at all. He said CAN, not IS.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I am wondering how these two explained themselves to the OC.

They explained that it was not a time out signal, but an overhead double fist pump.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

They explained that it was not a time out signal, but an overhead double fist pump.

But....wouldn't that mean that the ball hit the plate......twice?

[Julio Caliente]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

But....wouldn't that mean that the ball hit the plate......twice?

Just wait until I write "The Ugly" from this weekend.


These two umpires along w/ their daughter will be part of it.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Julio Caliente

...Say you were the BU and the PU signaled with both hands in the air or vice versa, what would you do?

Since no one answered your question yet......

I'm declaring the batter out, and placing the runners back on the bases they were on when the ball was hit.

From your description, it's obvious that the runner reacted to the umpires dead ball signal and was placed in jeopardy from it.

Oh yeah....and I'm going to have some words for him/her after the game also.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Andy

Since no one answered your question yet......

I'm declaring the batter out, and placing the runners back on the bases they were on when the ball was hit.

From your description, it's obvious that the runner reacted to the umpires dead ball signal and was placed in jeopardy from it.

Oh yeah....and I'm going to have some words for him/her after the game also.

If the umpires explained that they did not give the "Time/Dead Ball" signal, then it wasn't - even if the runners thought it was. After all, they didn't say "Time!", did they? They didn't say "Dead Ball!", did they?

Did the umpires say, "Infield fly, batter's out!"?

If so, then that's what it was!

The offense bears the responsibility of knowing what it means when an Infield Fly is declared.

As unorthodox as the umpires' gestures may have been, if they (the umpires) felt that it did not unfairly put the runners in jeopardy, then the call stands. The runner is out.

Now, if the umpires thought that they did, in fact, signal inappropriately -and- as a direct result of their signals the runners were unfairly put in jeopardy -then- I could see calling the batter out and putting the runners back.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Now, if the umpires thought that they did, in fact, signal inappropriately -and- as a direct result of their signals the runners were unfairly put in jeopardy -then- I could see calling the batter out and putting the runners back.

If their mechanics are bad enough to signal dead ball during an IFF, what is the liklihood that any of this is actually going to happen?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

If the umpires explained that they did not give the "Time/Dead Ball" signal, then it wasn't - even if the runners thought it was. After all, they didn't say "Time!", did they? They didn't say "Dead Ball!", did they?

Did the umpires say, "Infield fly, batter's out!"?

If so, then that's what it was!

The offense bears the responsibility of know what it means when an Infield Fly is declared.

As unorthodox as the umpires' gestures may have been, if they (the umpires) felt that it did not unfairly put the runners in jeopardy, then the call stands. The runner is out.

Now, if the umpires thought that they did, in fact, signal inappropriately -and- as a direct result of their signals the runners were unfairly put in jeopardy -then- I could see calling the batter out and putting the runners back.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat on this...

What we've got here is a fustercluck due to two umpires making a bad visual call. However, it is NOT up to the runners to know that ONLY an IFF was called when two umpires gave the dead ball signal. Maybe the batter's foot was completely out of the box. Maybe, somehow, the ball contacted the bat twice. Maybe a plane was about to crash land on the outfield fence. Runners can't see these things, and so they rely upon us umpires to make the right call, both verbal and visual.

I'm a particularly loud umpire, and despite this fact, there are times when verbal calls are not heard due to dozens of spectators and participants yelling a million different things. This is why verbal calls are almost always accompanied by visual calls, especially for situations such as these. When the wrong visual call is given, runners are placed in jeopardy. At this point, the Offensive Coach should have protested the game, and those two umps should be sent to the next clinic (or maybe to this forum).

I had an IFF the other night that went unheard due to everyone screaming, but I sure as hell threw up my right fist (and ONLY my right fist) and came out from behind the plate.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat on this...

What we've got here is a fustercluck due to two umpires making a bad visual call. However, it is NOT up to the runners to know that ONLY an IFF was called when two umpires gave the dead ball signal. Maybe the batter's foot was completely out of the box. Maybe, somehow, the ball contacted the bat twice. Maybe a plane was about to crash land on the outfield fence. Runners can't see these things, and so they rely upon us umpires to make the right call, both verbal and visual.

I'm a particularly loud umpire, and despite this fact, there are times when verbal calls are not heard due to dozens of spectators and participants yelling a million different things. This is why verbal calls are almost always accompanied by visual calls, especially for situations such as these. When the wrong visual call is given, runners are placed in jeopardy. At this point, the Offensive Coach should have protested the game, and those two umps should be sent to the next clinic (or maybe to this forum).

I had an IFF the other night that went unheard due to everyone screaming, but I sure as hell threw up my right fist (and ONLY my right fist) and came out from behind the plate.

Yeah, that's a pretty good analysis.

Like I said, the umpires have to be convinced they signaled incorrectly and created the situation. If the umpires thought they signaled appropriately, they shouldn't allow the coach or players talk them into what THEY thought the umpire signaled.

This reminds me of the old urban legend (not sure if it's true). During a big game with thousands of fans, the runner slides into a base on a close play and the umpire signals "out" yet says "Safe!". The runner, lying there confused asks, "Well, am I safe or out?" to which the umpire replies. "I know you're safe. You know you're safe. But 20 thousand people think you're out. So you're out."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bigsig]

Did a LL tourney Monday. Bases loaded, no outs. Fly ball hit to 2B, I call and signal IFF. 2B drops the ball and runner from 3B scores to win the game.

Coach comes out and argues runner from 3B didn't tag up. I tried to explain to him that the ball was dropped and no tag up was required. He still insists that LL rules require a runner to tag on an IFF even if the ball is not cought.

TD rejected his protest.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat on this...

What we've got here is a fustercluck due to two umpires making a bad visual call. However, it is NOT up to the runners to know that ONLY an IFF was called when two umpires gave the dead ball signal. Maybe the batter's foot was completely out of the box. Maybe, somehow, the ball contacted the bat twice. Maybe a plane was about to crash land on the outfield fence. Runners can't see these things, and so they rely upon us umpires to make the right call, both verbal and visual.

I'm a particularly loud umpire, and despite this fact, there are times when verbal calls are not heard due to dozens of spectators and participants yelling a million different things. This is why verbal calls are almost always accompanied by visual calls, especially for situations such as these. When the wrong visual call is given, runners are placed in jeopardy. At this point, the Offensive Coach should have protested the game...

I'm with you up to that last sentence. Unfortunately, poor umpire signals is not a protestable situation. Neither is failure to apply rule 10-3-C protestable (none of rule 10 is protestable). They got jobbed, but other than "protest" to the UIC and hope he oversteps his authority and overrules his crew, they have no real recourse.

[Julio Caliente]

Well, here is what happened.

-The play stood

-Nobody protested

-UIC was flabbergasted but realized there was nothing he could do.

-The top umpire (not UIC, but the umpire regarded as the best one there) went to discuss with them their mechanics, judgement, and uniforms but they were having non of it. Told the umpire that he was wrong and they were correct.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Julio Caliente

Well, here is what happened.

-The play stood

-Nobody protested

-UIC was flabbergasted but realized there was nothing he could do.

-The top umpire (not UIC, but the umpire regarded as the best one there) went to discuss with them their mechanics, judgement, and uniforms but they were having non of it. Told the umpire that he was wrong and they were correct.

So...go ahead and hit us with "the ugly."

[Julio Caliente]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

So...go ahead and hit us with "the ugly."

Ask and you shall receive.