Proposed Rule Changes, ASA?

[greymule]

I would recommend two changes off the top of my head:

1. Reverse the rule change of a couple of years ago that prohibits fourth-out appeals on runners who have not scored. Go back to the old way and get in line with every other code. Why shouldn't the defense be able to appeal the BR's miss of first (or failure to run to 1B) after 3 out simply because the BR did not score?

2. To prevent the play on which a runner or BR can commit deliberate interference and gain an advantage for his team, insert language to this effect: "If such interference occurs before the BR reaches 1B, all runners return TOP. In no event shall bases be runs or runs score, etc." I would also follow OBR and consider a runner who has crossed the plate before INT on a catch to be the runner closest to home plate.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From what I have observed of the umpires trying to use the mechanic, IPs just disappeared unless the pitch was extremely high.

That's exactly why I brought it up. I was working a league's championship game last week and getting a LOT of grief about one pitcher consistantly "hitting the ceiling". I wasn't calling any IP's on him. In about the 3rd inning, I used the 2006 mechanic, and holy $h!t... those pitches were well above 12 feet.

(Consequently, my next issue was trying to tell that F1 why I was now calling IP's more often. He finally brought them down.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

That's exactly why I brought it up. I was working a league's championship game last week and getting a LOT of grief about one pitcher consistantly "hitting the ceiling". I wasn't calling any IP's on him. In about the 3rd inning, I used the 2006 mechanic, and holy $h!t... those pitches were well above 12 feet.

(Consequently, my next issue was trying to tell that F1 why I was now calling IP's more often. He finally brought them down.)

Then you need to pass that on to Wild Bill, because no one was listening to me about this.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then you need to pass that on to Wild Bill, because no one was listening to me about this.

Done.

[3SPORT]

I would like to see a change to the hit batter rule. Take the "must make an attempt" out of the rule.

Make it black and white. If you are hit in the batters box, dead ball batter is awarded first base.

If the batter is hit by a pitch in the strike zone, Dead Ball Strike, no base awarded.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by 3SPORT

I would like to see a change to the hit batter rule. Take the "must make an attempt" out of the rule.

Make it black and white. If you are hit in the batters box, dead ball batter is awarded first base.

If the batter is hit by a pitch in the strike zone, Dead Ball Strike, no base awarded.

You're kidding, right? Who are you, the president of the Ron Hunt Fan Club?

You'll have more batters leaning into a pitch, eventually someone will be seriously injured and a load of people getting sued.

[mo99]

Originally Posted by 3SPORT

I would like to see a change to the hit batter rule. Take the "must make an attempt" out of the rule.

Make it black and white. If you are hit in the batters box, dead ball batter is awarded first base.

If the batter is hit by a pitch in the strike zone, Dead Ball Strike, no base awarded.

If B1 is hit by the pitch in the strike zone,it already is a strike,dead ball,and no base awarded.

Jeff

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by 3SPORT

I would like to see a change to the hit batter rule.

Me too. I want to see more umpires have the gonads to make 'em stay in the batters box when they don't attempt to move out of the way.

[Larks]

How about reviewing the rule that covers running home runs out in Mens SP? In Major and A - they do not run them. In B and C they do. Why?

This rule is being inconsistently being enforced by umpires, leagues and tournaments. Sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. Sometimes they actually tell the teams how they are going to enforce it and sometimes they don't which only guarantees problems.

Simplify it.....All divisions - do not run out home runs.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Larks

How about reviewing the rule that covers running home runs out in Mens SP? In Major and A - they do not run them. In B and C they do. Why?

This rule is being inconsistently being enforced by umpires, leagues and tournaments. Sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. Sometimes they actually tell the teams how they are going to enforce it and sometimes they don't which only guarantees problems.

Simplify it.....All divisions - do not run out home runs.

What "major"? The reason they do not run them is a time-saving issue that does not exist at the lower levels. And if an umpire does not enforce it, shame on them. Those are the ones causing the issue, not the rule.

[Larks]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What "major"? The reason they do not run them is a time-saving issue that does not exist at the lower levels. And if an umpire does not enforce it, shame on them. Those are the ones causing the issue, not the rule.

For the record, I'm a player coach in this situation who has played long enough to remember running them all out regardless of the level.

Good point on "major". I think it still says "major" in the book relative to this rule however.

My main point isn't so much relevant to what umpires do. It's the rule itself and the fact that tournaments and leagues throughout the country set it aside at their convenience. Then we go to the National and all the sudden it's enforced and I gotta tell you, that rule has teeth. In our case, we did not know the rule (please don't reply "well you should have") and it was not covered in ground rules or the managers meeting. So we reverted to what we always do and lost a two run homer as a result.

I think its selectively (intentionally or unintentionally) enforced at all levels which leads to problems. Do we really want teams to lose earned runs in a national tournament as a result of a rule that is only enforced one weekend a year??

If you want to keep it fine, but how about adding that as an item to be reviewed during ground rules. We cover run rules and home run limits....how about making sure everyone knows to run em out. Or....just drop it and quit running them out. Why should B & C be any different than A in this regard?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Larks

My main point isn't so much relevant to what umpires do. It's the rule itself and the fact that tournaments and leagues throughout the country set it aside at their convenience. Then we go to the National and all the sudden it's enforced and I gotta tell you, that rule has teeth. In our case, we did not know the rule (please don't reply "well you should have")

Well, you sh.....okay

and it was not covered in ground rules or the managers meeting.

That's because it is not a ground rule, nor a special rule that needs to be covered.

Your issue is with your local tournaments/leagues. Personally, I don't know what the big deal is about running out a ball you hit over the fence for a run.

So we reverted to what we always do and lost a two run homer as a result.
I think its selectively (intentionally or unintentionally) enforced at all levels which leads to problems. Do we really want teams to lose earned runs in a national tournament as a result of a rule that is only enforced one weekend a year??

I'm sorry, but I cannot answer this any other way.

The rule is the rule. It hasn't changed for a couple years. The only ones at fault here is your team. There is nothing selective about it. The only time the rule can be "officially" discarded is by a tournament director as a speed-up rule in an attempt to complete a tournament delayed by weather or some other reason out of the TD's control.

Your issue is with those who CHANGE the rule at their discretion, not those whom abide by it without exception. Just because something happens in your area or games does not mean it happens everywhere. I can tell you that I've never allowed players to not run out home runs unless that classification was permitted by rule which would be the Exception to 4.3.

If you want to keep it fine, but how about adding that as an item to be reviewed during ground rules. We cover run rules and home run limits....how about making sure everyone knows to run em out. Or....just drop it and quit running them out. Why should B & C be any different than A in this regard?

Again, it is not a ground rule or a special rule. Why is B & C different? What about D, are they not the same? As I stated earlier, it is a speed-up rule meant to deal with a select few, not the masses.

Of course, every time a runner is not required to run the bases on a HR, the defense loses anywhere from four to ten possible opportunities to get an out.

I know this isn't the answer you wanted to hear, but it's the only one available.

[Larks]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What about D, are they not the same?

Well - D doesn't get any home runs so no, they aren't relevant to this issue

I'll agree to disagree with you. Not a "ground rule", ok....other rules that are flexible to local situations ARE reviewed before every game. 12 after 5, 20 after 4 etc. Why not this rule then if you are enforcing it?

When a relatively high percentage of the games are being played WITHOUT this rule throughout the country, I think it's time to look at why we are still using it in the national tournaments.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Larks

Well - D doesn't get any home runs so no, they aren't relevant to this issue

But they do locally and in many tournament!!! Just kidding

I'll agree to disagree with you. Not a "ground rule", ok....other rules that are flexible to local situations ARE reviewed before every game. 12 after 5, 20 after 4 etc. Why not this rule then if you are enforcing it?

When a relatively high percentage of the games are being played WITHOUT this rule throughout the country, I think it's time to look at why we are still using it in the national tournaments.

Again, the change is locally and I don't believe the percentage is as high as you think. I've got plenty of experience at the higher national level and don't ever remember covering any book rule at the pregame meeting unless specifically asked about it by the manager. An exception to that would be if requested by the TD through the UIC that each umpire cover something specific in the pre-game and that is often exceptions to a rule for this tournament only, not the rule as written.

Stealing is a rule which is more likely not used at the local league level, but I've never addressed that either unless asked specifically by a manager at the pregame.

It isn't the umpire's job to give teams a rules clinic. These are umpires from around the country and they do not know what happens in your area. If you have a beef, it is with your local folds or tournament directors. They are the ones doing you a disservice and placing your team in jeopardy. Most of the time, the TD allows things simply because it's what the players want.

When I have players complain about running the bases on a HR, it usually involves (like you did) that the upper levels don't have to, whiy should I?

Here is where I get confused. You have players who buy expensive bats that make HR hitters out of anyone, want a postage stamp strike zone as a batter (just like they think the big boys have), they don't want to run out HR (like the big boys), they talk $hit like they are all superstars, but when it comes down to playing for a title, most of these guys cannot find a classification low enough to trophy hunt.

What it comes down to is that the rules are the rules. They are printed and a book is distributed to every team which registers. There are umpire rule clinic all over the country which you could probably attend. However, when it comes to game time, it is time to play ball, not give a rules clinic. Read the book, make yourself aware of the rules which affect your team and attend a clinic or two. Hell, try umpiring, you may like it. I KNOW you will learn more as long as you go into it with an open mind and it will improve your game as a player, guaranteed.

Good luck

[Larks]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It isn't the umpire's job to give teams a rules clinic.

I don't disagree and I'm not suggesting that.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

These are umpires from around the country and they do not know what happens in your area.

EXACTLY - So why not make sure we are ALL on the same page. I guarantee this was covered in the umpires meeting! Why not make sure we are ALL on the same page??

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you have a beef, it is with your local folks or tournament directors.

I don't disagree that this starts locally. But look at it from my side of the coin - In Cincinnati, ASA registers more teams than several states combined. We are talking thousands of games being played before the nationals and none of them use this rule. Isn't it therefore reasonable that teams from our area could fall into this problem? Actually, I know 3 teams that did. For the quality of play, why would you NOT want to address this? You mentioned stealing - when stealing is NOT permitted, umps mention it in ground rules. Why cant this be any different just the other way around?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

When I have players complain about running the bases on a HR, it usually involves (like you did) that the upper levels don't have to, whiy should I?

Actually - that wasn't my main point and its not about upper level envy - its about consistency of a rule for essentially the same sport and preventative officiating. Its not a rule in A but is in B & C and logically that doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Here is where I get confused. You have players who buy expensive bats that make HR hitters out of anyone, want a postage stamp strike zone as a batter (just like they think the big boys have), they don't want to run out HR (like the big boys), they talk $hit like they are all superstars, but when it comes down to playing for a title, most of these guys cannot find a classification low enough to trophy hunt.

Here is where I get confused....why is it that an attempt to talk about possible ASA rule changes reverts to a bat discussion by the guy who started the conversation? I never once suggested that I was a superstar or that I wanted to be like Brett Helmer. I actually am here as a coach of a team that is one of the few teams left from Cincinnati that is trying to still play ASA nationally when the lion share of teams are going USSSA if they want to play in Nationals and Worlds. What frustrates me is you have an attitude that we are ALL a bunch of sh$t talking fat a$$ beer drinking wannabe bomb hitters rather than interacting with me as a coach or participant in the sport. If the disposition towards men's slow pitch within ASA leadership is similar to yours - WHY BOTHER?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What it comes down to is that the rules are the rules. They are printed and a book is distributed to every team which registers. There are umpire rule clinic all over the country which you could probably attend. However, when it comes to game time, it is time to play ball, not give a rules clinic.

If you ask for rule changes and a particpant offers one, Why play the old "read the book and go to class" card? Is that the best you can do? Are you really so narrow minded that you are unwilling to even consider the fact that this rule affects teams unnecessarily. You are willing as an organization to modify it for the "big boys"....what was the justification there? Because the teams wanted it right?. I don't disagree that we should know the rules but again, you are missing the point - In my opinion, which you will obviously will never agree with the opinion of a beer drinking bomb hitting sh$t talker....but nonetheless, the ASA can and should do a better job with how they handle this specific rule since it is being selectively enforced. You can call it what you want....local rules, umps doing the wrong thing....TDs giving in to pressure from teams.....Bottom line - Its inconsistent from my point of view as a coach.

I'll give you the last word because my beer is getting warm.