NFHS 2008 rule changes

[Bandit]

I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Don't think or believe that by this comment that I think there is not a places for the local rec league. I have umpired and coached softball at all levels. At the highschool field and the local park. These is a place and a need for both. There are some that just need to know where the line for both is drawn. My personal opinion is that by bkbjones comment is that he one of those that needs to learn where that line is, or at least where and which fields the different games are being played on.

I just hope I never see any posts about how bad bkbjones last night HS game was or how long it took to get threw the terrible pitching his last nights HS game provided. Because he did indeed state HS ball is about "participation".

[Steve M]

Bandit,
Numerous folks from the Fed rules committee - past, present, and most likely future - have stated that the priorities for high school ball are participation, safety, and then compliance with other sanctioning bodies.
But you're a knowledgable high school coach - so you already knew that BK was absolutely correct in his statement.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Just because that is the way it is in IN, doesn't mean it is that way everywhere. Reasoning commonly offered for not requiring two feet in contact with the PP, participation. Reasoning recently offered for not moving pitching distance to 43', participation.

In some areas, some HS teams couldn't beat an ASA 16U travel team if their life depended on it. Whether you like it or not, HS ball just isn't as competitive in all markets as some would like to believe. There are still areas where HS softball is still nothing more than a token sport to satisfy the Title IX requirements.

[Bandit]

Let me get this right.....participation is a bad thing and they should not be allowed to play in metal cleats because they are not good enough or they are not coached well enough. Does that sound about right? It is funny to see what you guys think of high school coaches. The ones who are usually teachers (educated) and the ones who donate much of their time to these young people. Your sarcastic remark of "knowledgable" coach is humorous. I find that I usually know more about the rules than most of the umpires I come into contact with. So I guess you are one of those "know it all" umpires
If you have ever truly played the game then you would know that metal is beeter than anything else for safety and traction. If 14 year old boys can wear them then so should the girls. Pretty simple decision.

Umpires have no bearing on this rule. You are to call the game as the Federation, ASA, whoever tells you to call it. Softball is moving forward. Glad to see sopme people are....

[Dakota]

You really have a bug up your butt about something, dude.

HS sports IS about participation in many areas with everyone making one team or another - if not varsity, then JV, if not JV, then 10th grade, if not 10th grade, then 9th grade, etc. Fed rules cover them all. No one said it was bad, only that it was a fact of life for HS sports. Sure, you have your large schools who have the ability to pick and choose players, but for every one of those you have 10 smaller schools who pretty much field everyone who tries out.

Several of our members here are teachers, so take your unwarranted prejudice and stuff it somewhere.

Teachers are qualified to teach, not necessarily coach, and I've seen some very fine softball coaches in the HS ranks, but I've also seen some who were apparently there only for the extra dough.

Will metal cleats cause more injuries than they prevent for the typically-coached HS player? Time will tell. You will notice the opinion expressed by some regarding metal cleats was focused on poorly coached players of any age or gender. Face it... many coaches (HS, travel, rec) do a poor job of teaching players to slide properly or to play their defensive positions and are unnecessarily putting these players in danger of getting injured. This gets worse with metal spikes.

Personally, I think the game, players, and coaches will adapt, just as the HS boys have. In the meantime (until they adapt) there will be a few bloody and/or twisted ankles. We'll see how big a deal this becomes.

BTW, coaches do not have an exclusive right to be concerned with player safety. In fact, given the way many of them coach, they have no concern about it at all.

[JefferMC]

I hear this from a lot of area High School players: "School ball is for fun. Travel ball is serious." Not to say that we don't have a lot of serious HS softball programs around here, but I'd have to say that most of them are not.

If ASA JO, NSA, etc. don't think their players need to have metal cleats to be competitive, I fail to see why NFHS does. My HS coach may now want my DD to buy yet another set of cleats (like she doesn't go through enough already).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Being in Indy, I can understand your NFHS prejudice. My comments were not directed to any specific organization, I just disagree with the rule change.

This didn't just pop out of thin air. This possible change has been discussed for a while now and the only reasoning I have ever heard from anyone, but mostly coaches is, "the boys can wear them, why can't the girls." No other reasons or point of emphasis, xxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx.

You might also notice that I didn't defend males wearing them, either. Hell, they've outlawed metal bats in HS ball in some areas, but allow metals spikes. That makes a lot of sense.

All I have done is offer an opinion and basis for it. If you don't like it fine, you don't have to like it. Then again, you have acted in an extremely defensive manner other than when you are attacking someone, but not nearly as much compelling discussion in favor of why they should wear them from you except what I stated above, "because the boys do".

Yeah, I know, you said the players would get better traction. Metal spikes do not provide that much more traction, even in questionable situations. But what would I know. I'm only an umpire discussing rules on an umpire board.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Being in Indy, I can understand your NFHS prejudice. My comments were not directed to any specific organization, I just disagree with the rule change.

This didn't just pop out of thin air. This possible change has been discussed for a while now and the only reasoning I have ever heard from anyone, but mostly coaches is, "the boys can wear them, why can't the girls." No other reasons or point of emphasis, just simple gender-based reasoning.

You might also notice that I didn't defend males wearing them, either. Hell, they've outlawed metal bats in HS ball in some areas, but allow metals spikes. That makes a lot of sense.

All I have done is offer an opinion and basis for it. If you don't like it fine, you don't have to like it. Then again, you have acted in an extremely defensive manner other than when you are attacking someone, but not nearly as much compelling discussion in favor of why they should wear them from you except what I stated above, "because the boys do".

Yeah, I know, you said the players would get better traction. Metal spikes do not provide that much more traction, even in questionable situations. But what would I know. I'm only an umpire discussing rules on an umpire board.

The NFHS banned metal spikes for a long time in baseball. Eventually they concluded that the increased traction from the metal spikes outweighted the potential danger of them -- that there were more injuries with non-metal.

It's a non-issue, except when F2 gouges your new patent leather plate shoes. Grrr.

[bkbjones]

Hey Bandit,
You won't see that from me about how bad my game was. There is about an 80% chance that I have two more years left to umpire after this, and about two more years after that to hang around and suck up oxygen tht would otherwise be going to others, so, no, you won't hear me say anything about how crappy my game was alst night.

Now, if you don't believe it's about participation at HS, I invite you to call Mary Stuckhoff. I have her number right here if you need it. How about Diane Kolb, the softball rules committee member from our region. She lives just down the street, I'll take my cordless and you can talk to her, won't cost you a thing.

Too bad your program doesn't want kids to participate. Just because it's about participation doesn't mean it can't be about playing hard and winning.

This is snipped from the bottom of the softball news release. (Bold italics are mine and added so maybe they will slip through.)

"Softball is the fourth-most popular sport among girls at the high school level with 369,094 participants during the 2005-06 season, according to the High School Athletics Participation Survey conducted by the NFHS. It also ranks third in school sponsorship for girls across the nation with 14,710 schools."

Originally Posted by Bandit

I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Don't think or believe that by this comment that I think there is not a places for the local rec league. I have umpired and coached softball at all levels. At the highschool field and the local park. These is a place and a need for both. There are some that just need to know where the line for both is drawn. My personal opinion is that by bkbjones comment is that he one of those that needs to learn where that line is, or at least where and which fields the different games are being played on.

I just hope I never see any posts about how bad bkbjones last night HS game was or how long it took to get threw the terrible pitching his last nights HS game provided. Because he did indeed state HS ball is about "participation".

[Bandit]

Seriously...I can throw around big names out there too, but I wont. I have had communication with STRUCKHOFF as well. I am not impressed. I am defensive because all I have read here is that high school coaches, players and programs, for the most part, are not qualified to wear metal spikes or coach the sport. You guys have stated over and over again that HS softball and the Federation is about participation and not about highly skilled softball. I would say that in our area, those highly skilled travel ball players are also playing high school softball and are probably going on to play college ball. High School ball is not rec ball. I totally agree that HS softball is about participation, but that doesnt mean they should not wear metal spikes. If baseball teams are bad, do they get banned from wearing metal spikes.

I think that it real simple, the players have the opportunity now to wear either metal or non-metal. We play on the same surface as boys and the boys are allowed to wear them becasue they are safer, so why should the girls not be offered the same opportunity. I am happy there are teachers out there too that are involved on the sport. Most of the coaches that I know are continually trying to become better coaches at clinics, just like umps have. I have also been to some of those ump schools. That is for another time!! So, when the post earlier stated sarcastically that "we have another knowledgable coach here" that kind of summed up the oppinion I was feeling. I take a lot of pride in how hard I have worked to be the best coach I can be. Still not there yet, but always working towards it. As I am sure all of you are.

When I stated that this ruling did not invlove the umpires I was stating that it is an equipment rule, not a judgment call, or anything that affects the play on the field or the outcome of the game involving umpires. Just like a bat or helmet. You check them and then play. If metal spikes were so dangerous and deadly, why are we not seeing court cases invloving metal spikes like bats? I understand the bat issue. Lives are in danger with those things.

Just know that there are a lot of coaches out there, travel or HS, that are good and bad. But, that should have no bearing on players wearing metal spikes. You are right, players and coaches will adjust and it will be for the better. Sorry if I came across pissed off...I was. I know how hard my kids have worked and a lot of other girls I have worked with. They should be afforded the same opportunities to push the limits of their abilities safely, just as the boys do. Same type sport, same surface, same equipment....that is all.

Also, If you ever saw my field, you would not make the comment about raking!!

[Bandit]

ACL- Anterior Cruciate Ligament......just for the record.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Bandit,

Covered NFHS Rule Changes in local association meeting tonight. Majority is still trying to figure out what these people were thinking about with this change.

On the positive side, the association nominated you as a finalist in the Last Comic Standing series. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[Bandit]

"Finally, NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation. Renton (WA) High School hasn't won 10 games in five years, but there have been about 200 girls who have participated. There are far more Rentons out there than whatever school you claim to coach."
-bkbJones

HS softball is about participation. Participation of the highest skilled players in our schools. That is why there are cuts. It is not a free-for-all.

Thanks for the nomination to the comedy club. I am sure I will see a lot of your faces there! All of this is funny and time well wasted. Later!

[Bandit]

About the participation comments and their differences. The original comment about particiaption I believe was made by bkbjones. The comment was taken in the context that participation was all about the fun of participation. I believe in the HS format or context and with the fact that there are indeed try-outs and cuts made in most cases the game is taken a little bit more "seriously" then at the local rec/league level. If this was not the direction or context mr jones was implying I apologize for my misinterpretation. I believe this can be supported up by the differences of the words particpation and participants. One must have cause and/or purpose and the other simply represents numbers or fact. A big difference. Again an opinion of this particular author.

In respoxe to Mr SRW writing in post # 31 in this particular thread: "Please provide links to those posts where someone/anyone posted that NFHS is "not about highly skilled softball." Please refer to the comments of Mr Jones in post # 17 where he writes: " Finally, NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation." I believe while the exact words used may not used (highly skilled vs high level) the context or implication is certainly the same.

Bottom line I believe is certainly been made and that this is a choice the players, parents and coaches are now able to make on an individual basis. And this choice is now the same for both boys and girls.

Where any humor or joking has been made in the previous comments or posts I do not know, so the comment by Irishmafia about being "a finalist in the Last Comic Standing series" is a little confusing. But this is not the first time he's has confused me or others and it probally will not be the last time. In fact I believe if any individual were to ask Mr Irishmafia about some of his comments and what some think of them. They might wish that he would keep some of them more to himself. This of course is no secret as Mr Irishmafia has made that fact known himself thru past threads. But he always makes it interesting to say the least and we can always be sure he will have an opinion. That's probally what keeps me coming back.

One last comment about the cleat topic. What will be interesting to watch is what individual HS's or state HS organizations will choose to possible ignore or change this position at the local or state level.

And finally, whewwwwww, for some clearification and information. At least 2 individuals have been responding to this interesting thread. One from the point of coaching and one from the opionion of an umpire/coach. But as an individual (that would be the umpire/coach) who has had the oppurtunity to visit and participate on some of the finest softball fileds in college softball. One of which is the University of Louisville's softball field. And also the field in which this thread has mentioned, the care and condition of these two fields are comparable beyond anyones possilble belief or comprehension. In short. No raking is needed! Pictures available upon request, right coach?

[bkbjones]

Isn't it amazing how many comedic genuises fail to recognize their genius?!?

Now, as for what I said that has so pi$$ed you off:
NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation. Renton (WA) High School hasn't won 10 games in five years, but there have been about 200 girls who have participated. There are far more Rentons out there than whatever school you claim to coach.

My wife, who specializes in that sort of thing, points out that I need to be more clear because of the comprehension problem from which you may be suffering (based on the lack of comprehension, misspelling, taking things out of context, et cetera).

Here is an example that you should be able to understand about participation.

For many years, the state of Indiana was renown for having one classification for basketball. It will surprise you to know there was even a movie made about it. It was named "Hoosiers" and even had talking AND was in COLOR. Unbelievable!

Anyway...

Just a couple years ago, that tradition went away. Now they have multiple classifications competing in basketball playoffs competing toward multiple state championships. Why? So more high school student-athletes can participate in the experience.

What a novel concept!

Now, Mr. Nice Bkbjones is going away. At no point did I ever say anything about NFHS not being about skills. Any coach who isn't teaching their players skills is a bull$hit coach. Do you take me for a flaking moron or something?

As for being a namedropper, well, I was talked out of dropping some real names on you. Let's just say that I have met more heads of state than you have capable spelling or grammar teachers. It's been my pleasure to have visited with Mary Struckhoff on more than one occasion. I've known several members of past and present rules committees for several years. I'm proud to count Diane Kolb as a fellow umpire and, more importantly, a very best friend.

In every case, every person I have known on that committee has a passion for making not only a game so the most highly skilled players may succeed, but also making it a level playing field so that as many people participate as possible. Just as there is a place for Woodinville HS, there is a place for Franklin HS. It's my pleasure to know both coaches, the 64 and the 0. the Woodinville coach is also one of my good friends. When we're on the field we're not friends, for he coaches and I umpire. We've also comiserated about things like 64-0 games and how $hitty many members of the (in)human race can be. We've also talked about how nice it is to be able to be out there.

As for your field, I couldn't care less how it looks. You see, I'm out here pretty much on borrowed time as it is. We all are to some extent. Don't over worry about how good your field looks, and don't take any of this game or life for granted. Just being able to be vertical and being on a ball field is more than good enough for this man.