NFHS 2008 rule changes

[wadeintothem]

WHo really cares?

If they allow it they allow it..

Just gotta watch the catchers so they dont damage our own equipment.

Teaching someone how to slide with metal cleats is their problem. 20 girls can get sliced up and twisted ankles because of their stupid rule change and I wont shed a tear until someone runs their spikes over my nice plate shoes.

An umpires gotta feel dumb asking a player to remove her bracelet when she is running around with feet fulls of metal spikes though. Thats funny... but yep, the blues gotta do it.

[bkbjones]

Your honor,
I hereby submit Exhibit A, covering several items but not quite making sense about any of them. The overall failure of the US public school system would be paramount. Secondly, your honor, I believe this is just cause for one of our favorite cliches: "stupid coaches."

Attending a freaking clinic doesn't mean someone knows or doesn't know how to properly teach sliding, slide rule or anything else. I know two high school basketball coaches who, between the two, have won almost 2,000 games. They have freely admitted they are lost when it comes to coaching some aspects of post play.A coach who admits their shortcomings and works to overcome them is worth far more than any grain of salt.

Now, as far as putting down Irishmafia, you have no idea of whom or what you speak. Mike doesn't need me to defend him, but I will wager dollars to donuts he has done more on a national level than you, sir, have done on a local level -- not to mention the work Mike has done on a local and state level.

Finally, NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation. Renton (WA) High School hasn't won 10 games in five years, but there have been about 200 girls who have participated. There are far more Rentons out there than whatever school you claim to coach.

(Oh, and if you would get your butt out there with a rake and make the field a little better, maybe you wouldn't have so many pulls, blown whatevers, et cetera.)

Originally Posted by Bandit

Hey...Irish gangster guy....You say all this knowledge you have comes from first hand experience??? Including coaching...... Well, I think if any coach is worth a grain of salt they need to know how to teach sliding properly. So you are saying that all baseball coaches properly teach sliding? Is that why they get to use them? Maybe you do not know how to teach it but they have clinics for that if you would like to attend. I have had countless girls go on to play in college and they all come back and ask why they could not wear metal cleats in high school. I personally wrote letters to the federation trying to get the rule changed. Needless to say, I think they made the right decision.

You dont see girl basketball players wearing penny loafers do you? No, they play on the same surface that the boys do and they are permitted to wear the same type of shoe because it gives them the best traction. Listen carefully, I will type slow so you can understand me....the rule doesnt state that they HAVE to wear them. It just gives them the option.

There is a reason why high school baseball, college baseball and softball, pro baseball and softball wear them. They dont wear them because they sound cool walking on concrete!!!! They give you better traction. If you played something other then rec -league slow pitch, you would realize that games and players that are played at a high level need good traction on many different types of surfaces.

Dont bash high school coaches......I am one and I take offense to your biased view of the female ego comment and I am a male coach. Sounds like someone needs a bigger soap box. I applaud the federation for finally making the change. Let me guess....next thing is you will be for madatory face mask for the centerfielder and everyone using wiffle ball bats!!!

Stick to learning where the strike zone actually is and let the coaches and players deal with equipment issues that helps the athlete perform at a higher level. By the way scrapes and cuts heal a lot faster than pulled muscles or blown ACLs due to slipping or sliding.....

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Hey...Irish gangster guy....You say all this knowledge you have comes from first hand experience??? Including coaching...... Well, I think if any coach is worth a grain of salt they need to know how to teach sliding properly. So you are saying that all baseball coaches properly teach sliding? Is that why they get to use them? Maybe you do not know how to teach it but they have clinics for that if you would like to attend. I have had countless girls go on to play in college and they all come back and ask why they could not wear metal cleats in high school. I personally wrote letters to the federation trying to get the rule changed. Needless to say, I think they made the right decision.

You dont see girl basketball players wearing penny loafers do you? No, they play on the same surface that the boys do and they are permitted to wear the same type of shoe because it gives them the best traction. Listen carefully, I will type slow so you can understand me....the rule doesnt state that they HAVE to wear them. It just gives them the option.

There is a reason why high school baseball, college baseball and softball, pro baseball and softball wear them. They dont wear them because they sound cool walking on concrete!!!! They give you better traction. If you played something other then rec -league slow pitch, you would realize that games and players that are played at a high level need good traction on many different types of surfaces.

Dont bash high school coaches......I am one and I take offense to your biased view of the female ego comment and I am a male coach. Sounds like someone needs a bigger soap box. I applaud the federation for finally making the change. Let me guess....next thing is you will be for madatory face mask for the centerfielder and everyone using wiffle ball bats!!!

Stick to learning where the strike zone actually is and let the coaches and players deal with equipment issues that helps the athlete perform at a higher level. By the way scrapes and cuts heal a lot faster than pulled muscles or blown ACLs due to slipping or sliding.....

Deep breath....relax and step back before you step in the shi........ Never mind..too late.....

(I cant believe you said "higher level" when it comes to Fed softball)

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Deep breath....relax and step back before you step in the shi........ Never mind..too late.....

(I cant believe you said "higher level" when it comes to Fed softball)

Obviously, Darrell, we've got one of those knowledgable high school coaches

[Bandit]

I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Don't think or believe that by this comment that I think there is not a places for the local rec league. I have umpired and coached softball at all levels. At the highschool field and the local park. These is a place and a need for both. There are some that just need to know where the line for both is drawn. My personal opinion is that by bkbjones comment is that he one of those that needs to learn where that line is, or at least where and which fields the different games are being played on.

I just hope I never see any posts about how bad bkbjones last night HS game was or how long it took to get threw the terrible pitching his last nights HS game provided. Because he did indeed state HS ball is about "participation".

[Steve M]

Bandit,
Numerous folks from the Fed rules committee - past, present, and most likely future - have stated that the priorities for high school ball are participation, safety, and then compliance with other sanctioning bodies.
But you're a knowledgable high school coach - so you already knew that BK was absolutely correct in his statement.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Just because that is the way it is in IN, doesn't mean it is that way everywhere. Reasoning commonly offered for not requiring two feet in contact with the PP, participation. Reasoning recently offered for not moving pitching distance to 43', participation.

In some areas, some HS teams couldn't beat an ASA 16U travel team if their life depended on it. Whether you like it or not, HS ball just isn't as competitive in all markets as some would like to believe. There are still areas where HS softball is still nothing more than a token sport to satisfy the Title IX requirements.

[Bandit]

Let me get this right.....participation is a bad thing and they should not be allowed to play in metal cleats because they are not good enough or they are not coached well enough. Does that sound about right? It is funny to see what you guys think of high school coaches. The ones who are usually teachers (educated) and the ones who donate much of their time to these young people. Your sarcastic remark of "knowledgable" coach is humorous. I find that I usually know more about the rules than most of the umpires I come into contact with. So I guess you are one of those "know it all" umpires
If you have ever truly played the game then you would know that metal is beeter than anything else for safety and traction. If 14 year old boys can wear them then so should the girls. Pretty simple decision.

Umpires have no bearing on this rule. You are to call the game as the Federation, ASA, whoever tells you to call it. Softball is moving forward. Glad to see sopme people are....

[Dakota]

You really have a bug up your butt about something, dude.

HS sports IS about participation in many areas with everyone making one team or another - if not varsity, then JV, if not JV, then 10th grade, if not 10th grade, then 9th grade, etc. Fed rules cover them all. No one said it was bad, only that it was a fact of life for HS sports. Sure, you have your large schools who have the ability to pick and choose players, but for every one of those you have 10 smaller schools who pretty much field everyone who tries out.

Several of our members here are teachers, so take your unwarranted prejudice and stuff it somewhere.

Teachers are qualified to teach, not necessarily coach, and I've seen some very fine softball coaches in the HS ranks, but I've also seen some who were apparently there only for the extra dough.

Will metal cleats cause more injuries than they prevent for the typically-coached HS player? Time will tell. You will notice the opinion expressed by some regarding metal cleats was focused on poorly coached players of any age or gender. Face it... many coaches (HS, travel, rec) do a poor job of teaching players to slide properly or to play their defensive positions and are unnecessarily putting these players in danger of getting injured. This gets worse with metal spikes.

Personally, I think the game, players, and coaches will adapt, just as the HS boys have. In the meantime (until they adapt) there will be a few bloody and/or twisted ankles. We'll see how big a deal this becomes.

BTW, coaches do not have an exclusive right to be concerned with player safety. In fact, given the way many of them coach, they have no concern about it at all.

[JefferMC]

I hear this from a lot of area High School players: "School ball is for fun. Travel ball is serious." Not to say that we don't have a lot of serious HS softball programs around here, but I'd have to say that most of them are not.

If ASA JO, NSA, etc. don't think their players need to have metal cleats to be competitive, I fail to see why NFHS does. My HS coach may now want my DD to buy yet another set of cleats (like she doesn't go through enough already).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Being in Indy, I can understand your NFHS prejudice. My comments were not directed to any specific organization, I just disagree with the rule change.

This didn't just pop out of thin air. This possible change has been discussed for a while now and the only reasoning I have ever heard from anyone, but mostly coaches is, "the boys can wear them, why can't the girls." No other reasons or point of emphasis, xxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx.

You might also notice that I didn't defend males wearing them, either. Hell, they've outlawed metal bats in HS ball in some areas, but allow metals spikes. That makes a lot of sense.

All I have done is offer an opinion and basis for it. If you don't like it fine, you don't have to like it. Then again, you have acted in an extremely defensive manner other than when you are attacking someone, but not nearly as much compelling discussion in favor of why they should wear them from you except what I stated above, "because the boys do".

Yeah, I know, you said the players would get better traction. Metal spikes do not provide that much more traction, even in questionable situations. But what would I know. I'm only an umpire discussing rules on an umpire board.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Being in Indy, I can understand your NFHS prejudice. My comments were not directed to any specific organization, I just disagree with the rule change.

This didn't just pop out of thin air. This possible change has been discussed for a while now and the only reasoning I have ever heard from anyone, but mostly coaches is, "the boys can wear them, why can't the girls." No other reasons or point of emphasis, just simple gender-based reasoning.

You might also notice that I didn't defend males wearing them, either. Hell, they've outlawed metal bats in HS ball in some areas, but allow metals spikes. That makes a lot of sense.

All I have done is offer an opinion and basis for it. If you don't like it fine, you don't have to like it. Then again, you have acted in an extremely defensive manner other than when you are attacking someone, but not nearly as much compelling discussion in favor of why they should wear them from you except what I stated above, "because the boys do".

Yeah, I know, you said the players would get better traction. Metal spikes do not provide that much more traction, even in questionable situations. But what would I know. I'm only an umpire discussing rules on an umpire board.

The NFHS banned metal spikes for a long time in baseball. Eventually they concluded that the increased traction from the metal spikes outweighted the potential danger of them -- that there were more injuries with non-metal.

It's a non-issue, except when F2 gouges your new patent leather plate shoes. Grrr.

[bkbjones]

Hey Bandit,
You won't see that from me about how bad my game was. There is about an 80% chance that I have two more years left to umpire after this, and about two more years after that to hang around and suck up oxygen tht would otherwise be going to others, so, no, you won't hear me say anything about how crappy my game was alst night.

Now, if you don't believe it's about participation at HS, I invite you to call Mary Stuckhoff. I have her number right here if you need it. How about Diane Kolb, the softball rules committee member from our region. She lives just down the street, I'll take my cordless and you can talk to her, won't cost you a thing.

Too bad your program doesn't want kids to participate. Just because it's about participation doesn't mean it can't be about playing hard and winning.

This is snipped from the bottom of the softball news release. (Bold italics are mine and added so maybe they will slip through.)

"Softball is the fourth-most popular sport among girls at the high school level with 369,094 participants during the 2005-06 season, according to the High School Athletics Participation Survey conducted by the NFHS. It also ranks third in school sponsorship for girls across the nation with 14,710 schools."

Originally Posted by Bandit

I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Don't think or believe that by this comment that I think there is not a places for the local rec league. I have umpired and coached softball at all levels. At the highschool field and the local park. These is a place and a need for both. There are some that just need to know where the line for both is drawn. My personal opinion is that by bkbjones comment is that he one of those that needs to learn where that line is, or at least where and which fields the different games are being played on.

I just hope I never see any posts about how bad bkbjones last night HS game was or how long it took to get threw the terrible pitching his last nights HS game provided. Because he did indeed state HS ball is about "participation".

[Bandit]

Seriously...I can throw around big names out there too, but I wont. I have had communication with STRUCKHOFF as well. I am not impressed. I am defensive because all I have read here is that high school coaches, players and programs, for the most part, are not qualified to wear metal spikes or coach the sport. You guys have stated over and over again that HS softball and the Federation is about participation and not about highly skilled softball. I would say that in our area, those highly skilled travel ball players are also playing high school softball and are probably going on to play college ball. High School ball is not rec ball. I totally agree that HS softball is about participation, but that doesnt mean they should not wear metal spikes. If baseball teams are bad, do they get banned from wearing metal spikes.

I think that it real simple, the players have the opportunity now to wear either metal or non-metal. We play on the same surface as boys and the boys are allowed to wear them becasue they are safer, so why should the girls not be offered the same opportunity. I am happy there are teachers out there too that are involved on the sport. Most of the coaches that I know are continually trying to become better coaches at clinics, just like umps have. I have also been to some of those ump schools. That is for another time!! So, when the post earlier stated sarcastically that "we have another knowledgable coach here" that kind of summed up the oppinion I was feeling. I take a lot of pride in how hard I have worked to be the best coach I can be. Still not there yet, but always working towards it. As I am sure all of you are.

When I stated that this ruling did not invlove the umpires I was stating that it is an equipment rule, not a judgment call, or anything that affects the play on the field or the outcome of the game involving umpires. Just like a bat or helmet. You check them and then play. If metal spikes were so dangerous and deadly, why are we not seeing court cases invloving metal spikes like bats? I understand the bat issue. Lives are in danger with those things.

Just know that there are a lot of coaches out there, travel or HS, that are good and bad. But, that should have no bearing on players wearing metal spikes. You are right, players and coaches will adjust and it will be for the better. Sorry if I came across pissed off...I was. I know how hard my kids have worked and a lot of other girls I have worked with. They should be afforded the same opportunities to push the limits of their abilities safely, just as the boys do. Same type sport, same surface, same equipment....that is all.

Also, If you ever saw my field, you would not make the comment about raking!!

[Bandit]

ACL- Anterior Cruciate Ligament......just for the record.