Its about time for ASA to drop the "both feet" on rubber requirement

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

"the purpose of allowing the non-pivot foot to be behind the PITCHER'S PLATE was for participation purposes. Apparently, it is easier to pitch without the two-foot restriction and as we all know, not every school has a good pitcher from the start."

Sorry, Forrest, but this is what I have been told by Federation folks for a few years now when questioning this exact position

No good pitchers available?

Maybe opposite to your area and beliefs, but in some areas, HS ball is barely a step above recreational ball. Many teams couldn't play at the ASA "B" level if their lives depended on it. WMB, it's about time that you just accepted that without the geographical freedom other organizations enjoy, Fed ball just doesn't stand up against good 16U-18U ball games no matter what their association.

Then please tell me why ASA men have been allowed to “weaken your standard?” Why do the most powerful and fastest FP pitchers in this country need that “additional help?

Strawman argument. We are discussing 16-18 yo women. What does the men's game have to do with it?

If you must have an answer, it is simple. ASA, and most likely other organizations, adjust their rules for the purpose of competing with ISC. Life in the big city, deal with it, many others in this country do.

BTW – what happens to the ASA men when they get into international competition? Are they just like a H.S. or L.L. female pitcher that has to change for the tournament, and then goes back to the old way?

Yep, which is one reason ASA and ISC have created a developmental program for pitchers in the men's program.

I’ve watch several Senior L.L. girls capture the World Series pitching with step-back. At least one of those teams would have whipped any comparable age-group national class ASA team.

Yet the big question is from where did this pitcher emerge? It is not unlikely that, in spite of LL rules, a pitcher of variable experiences was recruited to play for this LL team. And no, not on a high horse, it happens.

So who has been inconsistent? Who keeps changing their pitching rules? Who allowed men (only) to legally leap (in 1992)? Who stopped men from stepping back in 1999, and then reversed direction again one year later? Who took away the leap in 2000? And allowed it back (“toe down rule) in 2005?

You may find it positive, or negative – but both NFHS and L.L. normally take years to change their rule sets. I suggest that careful and lengthy deliberation beats bowing to pressure groups frequently.

OK, I am off my soapbox. Fire away!


WMB

ASA, and I can only assume other bodies, makes no bones about the fact that sometimes rules are put into place that just do not work for the game. Maybe that's because they do not sit back and wait for the smoke in the back room to clear while a small group of individuals decide how their game of softball should be played. God forbid a mistake is recognized and corrected within a year's time. Maybe others should take note of the lack of an ivy-covered tower mentality.

And since you want to play the LL card, let's go all the way. IMO, there are only two reasons LL even supports what they call a softball program. Give the organization (1) a place to direct female players interested in playing baseball while (2) still keeping the family money within the organization. BTW, Williamsport shouldn't feel singled out by my opinion as Babe Ruth and a few other baseball-oriented organization are, IMO, operating under the same guise.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sorry, Forrest, but this is what I have been told by Federation folks for a few years now when questioning this exact position

Opinions are nice, but let's deal with facts.
Fact: ASA required both feet on plate.
Fact: NFHS followed ASA in its earliest book ('70's) and required both feet on plate.
Fact: ASA changed to allow step back (there was no separte male/female rules then).
Fact: NFHS followed ASA and changed to allow step back.
Fact: ASA changed rules for females only.
Fact: NFHS did not follow ASA this time.

So ask your contact if there were in the NFHS meeting 27 years ago when the ASA rule change was discussed and see what the reason for the NFHS position was at that time.

Maybe opposite to your area and beliefs, but in some areas, HS ball is barely a step above recreational ball. Many teams couldn't play at the ASA "B" level if their lives depended on it. WMB, it's about time that you just accepted that without the geographical freedom other organizations enjoy, Fed ball just doesn't stand up against good 16U-18U ball games no matter what their association.

My definition of "Rec League" is local community programs (L.L. or local organizations) where the parents pay their money and every little Johnny and Suzy gets to play - and the caliber of play is terrible. (I know; I am coaching a 12U boys team now!) Obviously no comparison to H.S. teams that are competitive, and often cut to get down to team size.

Travel Ball is another story. All-Star type teams; the best players from where ever; usually try-outs are required. I know of girls that travel 100 miles to play; I used to drive my granddaughter 70 mi (she didn't make the teams in our area); one top player from my town is playing with a team from CA! Obviously, no comparison of these teams to H.S. teams.

Strawman argument. We are discussing 16-18 yo women. What does the men's game have to do with it?

The argument express in this thread is that the step-back method is for inferior players than cannot match the ASA standard! So why do ASA men need the step-back? Are they inferior?

Yet the big question is from where did this pitcher emerge? It is not unlikely that, in spite of LL rules, a pitcher of variable experiences was recruited to play for this LL team. And no, not on a high horse, it happens.

Typo in my original post; I should have typed L.L. Big League Softball (instead of Senior League). Around here there usually is a single team per L.L. District, put together soley for tournament action. Our coach can recruit the best girls from about a hundred high schools. Plus they can go outside the District if there is no adjoining District. Those L.L. teams are good. One young lady I know only lost 3 or 4 games in 4 years pitching varsity ball, plus she led her team to a State Championship. But she wasn't good enough to pitch on the last L.L. World Series champion from this area. (But she did pitch on several travel teams over the years that reached high levels of national competition.)

ASA, and I can only assume other bodies, makes no bones about the fact that sometimes rules are put into place that just do not work for the game. Maybe that's because they do not sit back and wait for the smoke in the back room to clear while a small group of individuals decide how their game of softball should be played.

Mike - I pitched men's fastpitch for years; I umpired men's FP in upto last year. Men are spoiled when it comes to pitching. There are several parks within 30 miles of GR that support men's FP; all the umpires are told in no uncertain teams not to call IP's. ASA give's men's fastpitch what they want, including step back and making the leap legal. That is the rulebook, and at the local level we are told not to call anything. I don't think that ASA has the guts to stand up to the male FP players.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Opinions are nice, but let's deal with facts.
Fact: ASA required both feet on plate.
Fact: NFHS followed ASA in its earliest book ('70's) and required both feet on plate.
Fact: ASA changed to allow step back (there was no separte male/female rules then).
Fact: NFHS followed ASA and changed to allow step back.
Fact: ASA changed rules for females only.
Fact: NFHS did not follow ASA this time.

So ask your contact if there were in the NFHS meeting 27 years ago when the ASA rule change was discussed and see what the reason for the NFHS position was at that time.

So what? I'm not talking about 27 years ago, nor do I care. I'm talking about now. Just because one changed and the other did not is irrelevant to the issue.

Not all schools have a girl who can pitch at the travel ball level. I have been told (because I never had the skill to pitch in the FP game), that requiring just one foot to be in contact with the plate made it easier for some to adjust and learn to pitch or at least get it near the plate. Let me tell you, I saw quite a few games where the #1 pitcher for a school couldn't pitch the ball without a hump on it. I could only imagine how bad it would be if these girls couldn't use a rocking motion. They are not all that bad and some are pretty good, but those are also the travel ball kids that play for their school.

My definition of "Rec League" is local community programs (L.L. or local organizations) where the parents pay their money and every little Johnny and Suzy gets to play - and the caliber of play is terrible. (I know; I am coaching a 12U boys team now!) Obviously no comparison to H.S. teams that are competitive, and often cut to get down to team size.

Travel Ball is another story. All-Star type teams; the best players from where ever; usually try-outs are required. I know of girls that travel 100 miles to play; I used to drive my granddaughter 70 mi (she didn't make the teams in our area); one top player from my town is playing with a team from CA! Obviously, no comparison of these teams to H.S. teams.

That's my point. Some school teams are horrific and some do a great job. Not every school even has a real coach, but a teacher who needed the extra money. In this area, if a teacher applies for the job, they get it before any outside concern. It's getting away from that, but not soon enough.[/quote]



The argument express in this thread is that the step-back method is for inferior players than cannot match the ASA standard! So why do ASA men need the step-back? Are they inferior?
[/quote]

#1, I never made that assertion. I simply stated I was told that it was kept in Fed was for participation purposes. Anything else you presume is supposition.

As far as the men are concerned, see below

Typo in my original post; I should have typed L.L. Big League Softball (instead of Senior League). Around here there usually is a single team per L.L. District, put together soley for tournament action. Our coach can recruit the best girls from about a hundred high schools. Plus they can go outside the District if there is no adjoining District. Those L.L. teams are good. One young lady I know only lost 3 or 4 games in 4 years pitching varsity ball, plus she led her team to a State Championship. But she wasn't good enough to pitch on the last L.L. World Series champion from this area. (But she did pitch on several travel teams over the years that reached high levels of national competition.)

A few years back, ....well, let's just say a national LL champion softball team didn't really participate in any LL ball until the quest for the championship began. I don't think that is fair, but apparently it happens.

Mike - I pitched men's fastpitch for years; I umpired men's FP in upto last year. Men are spoiled when it comes to pitching. There are several parks within 30 miles of GR that support men's FP; all the umpires are told in no uncertain teams not to call IP's. ASA give's men's fastpitch what they want, including step back and making the leap legal. That is the rulebook, and at the local level we are told not to call anything. I don't think that ASA has the guts to stand up to the male FP players.

No argument from me, but that is a direct result of the competing sanctioning body which basically has no rules for the pitching corps in their game.

[Dakota]

All due respect to both Mike and WMB, this argument about whether the step back is for novice pitchers or power pitchers is silly. Fact is, some believe it helps both. I think they are right.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Dakota

All due respect to both Mike and WMB, this argument about whether the step back is for novice pitchers or power pitchers is silly. Fact is, some believe it helps both. I think they are right.

Thank you Dakota. Took the words outta my mouth. We have one who I nailed with an IP a few weeks back for this thing...at an ASA tournament. It wasn't the little baby step deal...it was all the way off the rubber.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

All due respect to both Mike and WMB, this argument about whether the step back is for novice pitchers or power pitchers is silly. Fact is, some believe it helps both. I think they are right.

Well, with all due respect to Tom, that had nothing to do with my statement.

I stated it was in place for 'PARTICIPATION' reasons. I have been told, it is easier to throw a pitch without being required to have both feet on the pitcher's plate, hence more girls will at least attempt to pitch for their team.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...I have been told, it is easier to throw a pitch without being required to have both feet on the pitcher's plate, hence more girls will at least attempt to pitch for their team.

i.e. easier for novice pitchers...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

i.e. easier for novice pitchers...

Maybe in your mind, but you can have a player with a fair bit of experience in the same situation.

Like umpiring, longevity only means the person has been around a while.

[justmom]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I could only imagine how bad it would be if these girls couldn't use a rocking motion.

The way the FED rules are written, "Any step backward shall begin before the hands come together.", I don't know how you can get a rocking motion. If the rules allowed the pitcher to rock back out of the glove, I guess there would be an advantage. I just can't visualize any way that a pitcher would be able to bring the hands together after the step back without breaking the momentum.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by justmom

The way the FED rules are written, "Any step backward shall begin before the hands come together.", I don't know how you can get a rocking motion. If the rules allowed the pitcher to rock back out of the glove,

Sorry, you lost me there. What does "rock back out of the glove" mean? I'm referring to the pitcher's body motion.

[justmom]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sorry, you lost me there. What does "rock back out of the glove" mean? I'm referring to the pitcher's body motion.

Oh, come on! You've seen this with beginning pitchers, especially in the rec leagues just as well as I have. They start with both feet on the pitcher's plate, bring the hands together out in front of the body and swing the arms and the foot back simultaneously. At this point, both the pitching arm and especially the stride foot are loaded with the energy from the backward motion so they get a a spring-like push off going back forward, and they go right into the pitch. Bringing the hands together AFTER the step-back halts this momentum.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by justmom

Bringing the hands together AFTER the step-back halts this momentum.

Not if the hands remain in motion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yes, I've seen it in baseball movies, documentaries and yes, even in person as a child.

A pitcher can easily "rock" without separating the hands after coming together. And if they really want to gain a bit of momentum, the rocking pitcher can bring their hand's together over her head.

Nonetheless, still off subject or, at least, the subject I'm discussing.