Its about time for ASA to drop the "both feet" on rubber requirement

[wadeintothem]

HA! What a bunch of schmucks.

Thanks.

I should have researched NCAA ruleset on my own. (I dont work NCAA ball)

This thread stems from a convo a bunch of umps were having and the alleged NCAA guys stated exactly the opposite and convinced me ASA was wrong. In fact they were stating leagues i've barely heard of (utrip (sic??) for one) and everyone switching, leaving ASA behind.

If its only NFHS, then ASA is correct.

Thanks steve.

[wadeintothem]

In fact, it started because I was calling it pretty rough.. even once with bases loaded.. this is ASA 18G. It ticks me off they got to me.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

HA! What a bunch of schmucks.

Thanks.

I should have researched NCAA ruleset on my own. (I dont work NCAA ball)

This thread stems from a convo a bunch of umps were having and the alleged NCAA guys stated exactly the opposite and convinced me ASA was wrong. In fact they were stating leagues i've barely heard of (utrip (sic??) for one) and everyone switching, leaving ASA behind.

If its only NFHS, then ASA is correct.

Thanks steve.

I try not to compare things to USSSA anymore. When I used to call U-trip 12? years ago (back when it was still United States Slo-Pitch Softball Association), it used to be very similar to ASA. The wording was different in the rules, but the effects of the rules were relatively identical with some minor exceptions. Now that they've expanded to cover just about every sport short of curling, they've also let a lot of things go in their softball rules. From all reports I've heard, it looks more like a circus act than a ball game.

In my humble opinion, if you hear someone starting to compare USSSA to ASA, take it with a grain of salt.

Sorry if this bugs any USSSA umps out there (though I haven't seen that alphabet soup in anyone's signature here as of yet), but that's just what I'm hearing both from other umps, players and coaches.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I try not to compare things to USSSA anymore. When I used to call U-trip 12? years ago (back when it was still United States Slo-Pitch Softball Association), it used to be very similar to ASA. The wording was different in the rules, but the effects of the rules were relatively identical with some minor exceptions. Now that they've expanded to cover just about every sport short of curling, they've also let a lot of things go in their softball rules. From all reports I've heard, it looks more like a circus act than a ball game.

In my humble opinion, if you hear someone starting to compare USSSA to ASA, take it with a grain of salt.

Sorry if this bugs any USSSA umps out there (though I haven't seen that alphabet soup in anyone's signature here as of yet), but that's just what I'm hearing both from other umps, players and coaches.

Well, I didnt really give a crap about those leagues.. but if NFHS and NCAA were allowing it.. and ASA allows it for their male players, I saw no reason to keep disallowing it. If NCAA doesnt allow it, then it would be lame for ASA to switch.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I try not to compare things to USSSA anymore. When I used to call U-trip 12? years ago (back when it was still United States Slo-Pitch Softball Association), it used to be very similar to ASA. The wording was different in the rules, but the effects of the rules were relatively identical with some minor exceptions. Now that they've expanded to cover just about every sport short of curling, they've also let a lot of things go in their softball rules. From all reports I've heard, it looks more like a circus act than a ball game.

In my humble opinion, if you hear someone starting to compare USSSA to ASA, take it with a grain of salt.

Sorry if this bugs any USSSA umps out there (though I haven't seen that alphabet soup in anyone's signature here as of yet), but that's just what I'm hearing both from other umps, players and coaches.

I really don't know your sources, but I would venture to say that they, and you, are sadly misinformed. USSSA FP has really grown over the past half dozen years or so, and its rules are very closely in line with those of NFHS. Around here, some of the most competetive teams are playing USSSA tournaments. It resembles nothing like "a circus." Oh, and not all umpires include the groups they work in their signatures. Some just place them in their profiles.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I really don't know your sources, but I would venture to say that they, and you, are sadly misinformed. USSSA FP has really grown over the past half dozen years or so, and its rules are very closely in line with those of NFHS. Around here, some of the most competetive teams are playing USSSA tournaments. It resembles nothing like "a circus." Oh, and not all umpires include the groups they work in their signatures. Some just place them in their profiles.

Actually, the sources to which I was referring were referring to SP, and by all accounts, they're accurate. This is a FP thread, and my only reason for bringing up USSSA was that just because one rule book in particular decides to bend rules doesn't mean it's for the best.

I'll fall back to a statement I made a number of threads ago - players will rise to the level of (reasonable) expectations. Two feet on the PP does not sound unreasonable to me, and pitchers have been doing it (and doing it well) for years.

[Andy]

Here in AZ, the switching back an forth is not an issue. Most of the pitchers play far more ball under "both feet on the PP" rulesets than they do under HS rules. So most of our HS pitchers start with both feet on the PP anyway.

If we see a pitcher in HS stepping back, it's most likely she doesn't play much other than HS ball.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Andy

Here in AZ, the switching back an forth is not an issue. Most of the pitchers play far more ball under "both feet on the PP" rulesets than they do under HS rules. So most of our HS pitchers start with both feet on the PP anyway.

If we see a pitcher in HS stepping back, it's most likely she doesn't play much other than HS ball.

Thanks Andy, your post allows me to just say:

Ditto here in MN.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I really don't know your sources, but I would venture to say that they, and you, are sadly misinformed. USSSA FP has really grown over the past half dozen years or so, and its rules are very closely in line with those of NFHS. Around here, some of the most competetive teams are playing USSSA tournaments. It resembles nothing like "a circus." Oh, and not all umpires include the groups they work in their signatures. Some just place them in their profiles.

Just for fun:
Current: NFHS, NCAA, PONY, USSSA, ASA, MPSSAA, DIAA (aka DSSAA), DSUA, UUA, HARSOA, NASO
Past: DSOA, DSRA, USSF, IAABO, BBOA, NNLL
Almost: NSA (clinic - no games accepted)

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Just for fun:
Current: NFHS, NCAA, PONY, USSSA, ASA, MPSSAA, DIAA (aka DSSAA), DSUA, UUA, HARSOA, NASO
Past: DSOA, DSRA, USSF, IAABO, BBOA, NNLL
Almost: NSA (clinic - no games accepted)

I'll bring the crackers, Cecil!

[WestMichBlue]

I love it every time this argument is raised and all the NFHS bashers have a field day. Ie.,

"NFHS and some lesser (in softball) associations are willing to weaken the standard pitching rule out of fear that certain areas can't compete,” or –

"the purpose of allowing the non-pivot foot to be behind the PITCHER'S PLATE was for participation purposes. Apparently, it is easier to pitch without the two-foot restriction and as we all know, not every school has a good pitcher from the start."

What bull crap! Lesser associations? Weaken the standard? No good pitchers available? Then please tell me why ASA men have been allowed to “weaken your standard?” Why do the most powerful and fastest FP pitchers in this country need that “additional help?

BTW – what happens to the ASA men when they get into international competition? Are they just like a H.S. or L.L. female pitcher that has to change for the tournament, and then goes back to the old way?


So how did we get to this point?

Originally, and for over fifty years, ASA required both feet in contact with the plate, and the pivot foot could not leave the plate until the stride foot landed (drag was not legal then). Because NFHS followed ASA, the NFHS pitching rules were the same.

In about 1985 ASA changed and allowed pitchers (male and female) to step back. NFHS followed and changed its rules.

About 1990 ASA changed back to its old rules for females only; men were still allowed to step back. NFHS did NOT follow that change. Why – I don’t know. Maybe they disagreed with ASA. Maybe they decided not to restrict their pitchers.

Prior to writing their own rulebook a few years ago, the NCAA used ASA rules. So they simply copied over the ASA Female/JO rule set to their new book. However, L.L. never changed; and USSSA and PONY basically follow NFHS rules so they haven’t changed.


“If we see a pitcher in HS stepping back, it's most likely she doesn't play much other than HS ball."

I’ve watch several Senior L.L. girls capture the World Series pitching with step-back. At least one of those teams would have whipped any comparable age-group national class ASA team.

So who has been inconsistent? Who keeps changing their pitching rules? Who allowed men (only) to legally leap (in 1992)? Who stopped men from stepping back in 1999, and then reversed direction again one year later? Who took away the leap in 2000? And allowed it back (“toe down rule) in 2005?

You may find it positive, or negative – but both NFHS and L.L. normally take years to change their rule sets. I suggest that careful and lengthy deliberation beats bowing to pressure groups frequently.

OK, I am off my soapbox. Fire away!


WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

"the purpose of allowing the non-pivot foot to be behind the PITCHER'S PLATE was for participation purposes. Apparently, it is easier to pitch without the two-foot restriction and as we all know, not every school has a good pitcher from the start."

Sorry, Forrest, but this is what I have been told by Federation folks for a few years now when questioning this exact position

No good pitchers available?

Maybe opposite to your area and beliefs, but in some areas, HS ball is barely a step above recreational ball. Many teams couldn't play at the ASA "B" level if their lives depended on it. WMB, it's about time that you just accepted that without the geographical freedom other organizations enjoy, Fed ball just doesn't stand up against good 16U-18U ball games no matter what their association.

Then please tell me why ASA men have been allowed to “weaken your standard?” Why do the most powerful and fastest FP pitchers in this country need that “additional help?

Strawman argument. We are discussing 16-18 yo women. What does the men's game have to do with it?

If you must have an answer, it is simple. ASA, and most likely other organizations, adjust their rules for the purpose of competing with ISC. Life in the big city, deal with it, many others in this country do.

BTW – what happens to the ASA men when they get into international competition? Are they just like a H.S. or L.L. female pitcher that has to change for the tournament, and then goes back to the old way?

Yep, which is one reason ASA and ISC have created a developmental program for pitchers in the men's program.

I’ve watch several Senior L.L. girls capture the World Series pitching with step-back. At least one of those teams would have whipped any comparable age-group national class ASA team.

Yet the big question is from where did this pitcher emerge? It is not unlikely that, in spite of LL rules, a pitcher of variable experiences was recruited to play for this LL team. And no, not on a high horse, it happens.

So who has been inconsistent? Who keeps changing their pitching rules? Who allowed men (only) to legally leap (in 1992)? Who stopped men from stepping back in 1999, and then reversed direction again one year later? Who took away the leap in 2000? And allowed it back (“toe down rule) in 2005?

You may find it positive, or negative – but both NFHS and L.L. normally take years to change their rule sets. I suggest that careful and lengthy deliberation beats bowing to pressure groups frequently.

OK, I am off my soapbox. Fire away!


WMB

ASA, and I can only assume other bodies, makes no bones about the fact that sometimes rules are put into place that just do not work for the game. Maybe that's because they do not sit back and wait for the smoke in the back room to clear while a small group of individuals decide how their game of softball should be played. God forbid a mistake is recognized and corrected within a year's time. Maybe others should take note of the lack of an ivy-covered tower mentality.

And since you want to play the LL card, let's go all the way. IMO, there are only two reasons LL even supports what they call a softball program. Give the organization (1) a place to direct female players interested in playing baseball while (2) still keeping the family money within the organization. BTW, Williamsport shouldn't feel singled out by my opinion as Babe Ruth and a few other baseball-oriented organization are, IMO, operating under the same guise.