ASA crash

[greymule]

We recently discussed a play (from an old ASA test) in which the batter is called out for throwing his bat in anger before his fly ball goes over the fence. We noted that the case book does not contain that play, and that the interpretation has been discredited or rejected.

However, an outgrowth of that interpretation was that a runner who, before touching home plate, deliberately crashed the catcher while the ball was still in the outfield could be called out for doing so, the run being nullified. The idea was that if a batter could be called out for "flagrant misconduct," so could a runner.

I taught that interpretation in a couple of clinics. However, I'm wondering whether now the call should be score the run and then eject the runner.

The Phelps-Johjima crash in yesterday's Yankees-Mariners game caused me to reconsider this. Note that in the MLB game, Phelps wasn't even ejected after an obviously intentional and unnecessary crash of a catcher who did not have the ball. Of course, retaliation followed from the mound.

[Dakota]

I wouldn't think there would be much of anything to learn from MLB on crashing that could be applied to amateur softball. Maybe I'm missing your point.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

The idea was that if a batter could be called out for "flagrant misconduct," so could a runner.

I taught that interpretation in a couple of clinics. However, I'm wondering whether now the call should be score the run and then eject the runner.

I think the ASA rule book has this one fairly well-covered, though my book is in the car, so I can't quote the exact rule. Should be in rule 8, section 7 (The runner is out if...). My interpretation is that a deliberate crash at any time, live ball or dead ball awarded bases, results in that player being out and possibly ejected if the contact is flagrant. If that's the third out in the situation you described, no runners can score after him, but the over-the-fence still counts towards their limit. If the offense wants to complain, tell them to complain to their runner who took at least two runs off the board. :P

[greymule]

I wouldn't think there would be much of anything to learn from MLB on crashing that could be applied to amateur softball. Maybe I'm missing your point.

I'm not trying to find a parallel with MLB. It was just yesterday's crash that got me thinking about how that play would be called in ASA. In MLB, going out of your way to deliberately crash into a catcher who doesn't have the ball is not technically illegal, though it does violate "etiquette" and will provoke retaliation.

My only question was, In ASA, can the umpire declare the runner out if he commits such a violation before he touches home plate?

Should be in rule 8, section 7 (The runner is out if...). My interpretation is that a deliberate crash at any time, live ball or dead ball awarded bases, results in that player being out and possibly ejected if the contact is flagrant.

Section 8-7 covers a crash when the fielder has the ball, not a deliberate crash into a fielder who does not have the ball.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

[B]My only question was, In ASA, can the umpire declare the runner out if he commits such a violation before he touches home plate?

The ump could, and should! There's simply no call for that kind of unsportsmanlike action, and it should immediately result in a penalty. It's been my experience that if an umpire fails to act quickly on this, s/he's going to have a mess on their hands when other players want retribution of their own kind. Players start coming out of dugouts, gloves get dropped, things get heated fast.

Originally Posted by greymule

[B]Section 8-7 covers a crash when the fielder has the ball, not a deliberate crash into a fielder who does not have the ball.

Very true, and I stand corrected. I'd still call the player out and toss him for USC.

[3afan]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

.... I'd still call the player out and toss him for USC.

definitely !!!

[Dakota]

Well, the case play has disappeared. It was the ONLY written backing for ruling a runner out for flagrant misconduct.

So, NCASAUMP and 3afan, please cite your rule for calling the runner out.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by greymule

We recently discussed a play (from an old ASA test) in which the batter is called out for throwing his bat in anger before his fly ball goes over the fence. We noted that the case book does not contain that play, and that the interpretation has been discredited or rejected.

However, an outgrowth of that interpretation was that a runner who, before touching home plate, deliberately crashed the catcher while the ball was still in the outfield could be called out for doing so, the run being nullified. The idea was that if a batter could be called out for "flagrant misconduct," so could a runner.

I taught that interpretation in a couple of clinics. However, I'm wondering whether now the call should be score the run and then eject the runner.

The Phelps-Johjima crash in yesterday's Yankees-Mariners game caused me to reconsider this. Note that in the MLB game, Phelps wasn't even ejected after an obviously intentional and unnecessary crash of a catcher who did not have the ball. Of course, retaliation followed from the mound.

We recently discussed a play (from an old ASA test) in which the batter is called out for throwing his bat in anger before his fly ball goes over the fence. We noted that the case book does not contain that play, and that the interpretation has been discredited or rejected.


Discredited or rejected by whom?
The case book is still valid in my opionion, since it was a 2005/06 book.

Does the current case book say to disregard previous interpretations?

Common sense says a player who commits an ejectable offense before scoring is out and his run(even on an awarded base) cannot count.

[bkbjones]

Sorry...I was just trying to make a point and didn't mean to run afoul of the nice police.