Runner question

[Jackman]

Apprerciate your thoughts: R1 on 3B as only runner. Batter (now R2)gets walk and after ball back to pitcher in 16 foot circle, R2 touches 1st and keeps running toward 2nd base. Pitcher looks back R1 to third and throws to 2nd. R2, realizing she is a dead duck, stops running and gets into a rundown between 1st and 2nd. During the rundown, R1 races home and scores without a throw. After a few tosses back and forth, R2 safely reaches 2nd base.
RULING: Is R2 out as soon as she retreated back to 1st base IN VIOLATION OF LOOK-BACK RULE and R2 should be returned to 3rd or would run count and R2 safe at second?

[mcrowder]

Why would anyone be out in this scenario at all?

Well ... he edited his post after I posted my response... I now see that OP is thinking there's a LBR violation. As others have stated below, there is no LBR to violate if the pitcher makes a play on anyone. BR was legal when she retreated back to 1st base.

[DaveASA/FED]

Lookback rule in out of effect anytime the pitcher makes a play in the umpires judgement. I don't think anyone would argue that throwing the ball to get a runner out is not making a play! So the LBR is null and the runner are safe.

[Hoosier_Dave]

R2 safe at 2nd and run scores.

LBR is off when pitcher throws to second. Personally, I'm giving some latitude on LBR if F1 and R1 are in a staring contest especially if F1 has arm cocked. Now, if pitcher turns her attention away from R1 and looks toward catcher for next pitch, then R1 must either advance or retreat.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

Personally, I'm giving some latitude on LBR if F1 and R1 are in a staring contest especially if F1 has arm cocked.

What if her arm isn't cocked(or she isn't doing anything besides staring at the runner that could be considered making a play), and the pitcher is just standing there looking at the runner. Are you telling me that you won't enforce the LBR then?

As to the original post, LBR is not in effect as the others have noted. Run scores R2 on second.

[tcannizzo]

R2 did not stop because she realized she was a dead duck, she stopped because she did what she was taught and achieved her goal which was to get the ball thrown out to 2B, and then go get into a rundown to allow the run to score. It is scored as a SAC if she gets out, but staying safe at 2B is gravy.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

R2 did not stop because she realized she was a dead duck, she stopped because she did what she was taught and achieved her goal which was to get the ball thrown out to 2B, and then go get into a rundown to allow the run to score. It is scored as a SAC if she gets out, but staying safe at 2B is gravy.

There's no such thing as a sacrifice Caught Stealing... There are sacrifice bunts and sacrifice flies. This runner does not get credited with a sac (Or an RBI, if you were implying that).

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

R2 safe at 2nd and run scores.

LBR is off when pitcher throws to second. Personally, I'm giving some latitude on LBR if F1 and R1 are in a staring contest especially if F1 has arm cocked. Now, if pitcher turns her attention away from R1 and looks toward catcher for next pitch, then R1 must either advance or retreat.

If F1 doesn't have the arm cocked and is "in a staring contest", R1 is out. In fact, the "staring contest" is about how the rule got the name "lookback rule" in the first place. The "staring contest" is exactly when you should NOT give any latitude to the runner.

Also note - the initial cock of the arm can be considered a play ... anything that causes the runner to react or reevaluate can be considered a play. Standing there with the arm cocked without movement of that arm is NOT a play - you might give a little more than the 1-1000-2-OUT! if you have a pitcher with a motionless cocked arm ... but not much more.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

There's no such thing as a sacrifice Caught Stealing... There are sacrifice bunts and sacrifice flies. This runner does not get credited with a sac (Or an RBI, if you were implying that).

The Official Scorer doesn't know jack about fastpitch.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

The Official Scorer doesn't know jack about fastpitch.

Tony, as her coach you can give her a helmet sticker or a lollypop or whatever you want for executing the play the way you wanted. However, the scorer can't give her a SAC -- no matter how much the scorer knows or doesn't know about fastpitch.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by argodad

...the scorer can't give her a SAC -- no matter how much the scorer ...doesn't know about fastpitch.

Really?? You mean the hand will refuse to enter than into the score book?

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Really?? You mean the hand will refuse to enter than into the score book?

Well, I take it back. If it's a home team mom scoring a HS game, she might get a SAC, or maybe even a hit, and if it's the scorer's daughter, maybe even an RBI.

[tcannizzo]

Well, let me explain my position a little better...

It is not a SAC in the sense that she obviously achieved 1B and improved her OB%. But she did her job where the strategy was to trade an out for a run. I would certainly have a separate category in my team stats called Intentionally Caught Stealing, so as not to lump it in with other CS.

Likewise, as defensive coach I would not give my catcher credit for gunning a runner down attempting to steal.

[Jackman]

Would it make a difference if pitcher totally ignored R1 and just threw to second when she saw R2 race past 1st base? R2 again stops and retreats to 1B and is involved in rundown before safely making it to 2B.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Jackman

Would it make a difference if pitcher totally ignored R1 and just threw to second when she saw R2 race past 1st base? R2 again stops and retreats to 1B and is involved in rundown before safely making it to 2B.

no difference