A walk is as good as a hit...maybe

[Dakota]

I agree, Mark, and that is also what mcrowder was saying.

Bottom of 7th, tie score, bases loaded, BR receives a base on balls...

No outs. R1 crosses home, R2, R3, and BR join the celebration failing to touch 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. Defense has 3 appeals available to them, and if they make all three, inning is over and no runs score.

You do the scenarios as to who touches, who doesn't and number of outs for variations on this.

I still have a question out there... what about the runners abandoning the attempt to advance and entering DBT. This is not an appeal play.

[jimpiano]

What these rules tell me is that EVEN IF the batter-runner touches first base, AND R1 touches home, R2 and R3 ARE required to touch the bases to which they were forced. If they don't, they can be appealed out and the out would be a force out, wiping out the run.
__________________

Again, a runner with NO liability to be put out is not forced to touch the next base to validate a run scoring.

In this case when the runner from third touches home before or after the batter/runner touches first the game is over. There is nothing to appeal.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Again, a runner with NO liability to be put out is not forced to touch the next base to validate a run scoring.

In this case when the runner from third touches home before or after the batter/runner touches first the game is over. There is nothing to appeal.

All I am asking is that you back up what I have highlighted with a rule cite. Not bombast, or simple declarative statements, or saying you've already cited the rules (because while you have cited SOME rules, they don't validate what I highlighted, above). Rule, please? Is that so hard?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

What these rules tell me is that EVEN IF the batter-runner touches first base, AND R1 touches home, R2 and R3 ARE required to touch the bases to which they were forced. If they don't, they can be appealed out and the out would be a force out, wiping out the run.
__________________

Again, a runner with NO liability to be put out is not forced to touch the next base to validate a run scoring.

In this case when the runner from third touches home before or after the batter/runner touches first the game is over. There is nothing to appeal.

IF they actually touch the base, they have no liability to be put out. But, if they don't touch the base, they can be appealed out and the out is a force out if they were forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Again, a runner with NO liability to be put out is not forced to touch the next base to validate a run scoring.

In this case when the runner from third touches home before or after the batter/runner touches first the game is over. There is nothing to appeal.

ANY rule basis for what you're saying here would truly be appreciated. You keep stating the 2nd paragraph as fact, with no basis. The first sentence is simply false.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Dakota

All I am asking is that you back up what I have highlighted with a rule cite. Not bombast, or simple declarative statements, or saying you've already cited the rules (because while you have cited SOME rules, they don't validate what I highlighted, above). Rule, please? Is that so hard?

If you take my replies as "bombastic" then I apologize, but they were never intended to be.

I have cited the rules covering the situation as I see it.

If you prefer to honor those appeals at second or third you certainly can, but I never would.

[NCASAUmp]

Jim,

I think what Mike (and others) would be looking for is something like 8-7-R states "The runner is out if he fails to remain in contact..." blah blah blah.

The above rule is irrelevant to this discussion. Just using it as an example of what they're looking for. Since I don't have my book with me, I'm keeping out of it until later tonight when I can grab my copy.

[jimpiano]

I agree with you. I cannot see any relationship between the scenario started in this thread and those quoted rules regarding force outs.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I agree with you. I cannot see any relationship between the scenario started in this thread and those quoted rules regarding force outs.

But you can see the relationship if the run isn't an apparent game-ender? You just said you would allow those appeals if the run was not an apparent game-ender. What's the difference? Why can you understand one and not the other - they are the same.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

But you can see the relationship if the run isn't an apparent game-ender? You just said you would allow those appeals if the run was not an apparent game-ender. What's the difference? Why can you understand one and not the other - they are the same.

I will defer to your argument.

In researching old case books I did find a similar situation in the 2005/6 book that talks about runners heading to dead ball areas on a walk. While the scenario is a little different, it does say that awarded bases must be touched.
This is a fast pitch situation.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

If you take my replies as "bombastic" then I apologize, but they were never intended to be.

I have cited the rules covering the situation as I see it.

If you prefer to honor those appeals at second or third you certainly can, but I never would.

I believe we're trying to be patient with you here ... You've cited rules. Several of us have mentioned that the rules you cited have nothing to do with this situation. Your response? "I've cited the rules." Us: "Those rules don't apply, please cite the rules that do." You: "I've cited the rules."

Give us the rule that supports your case ... or at least explain to us why you think the rules you quoted support your case.

Our honoring of appeals at 2nd and 3rd ARE supported by the rulebook. So why wouldn't you - and what would your defense be when your ruling is protested? Show us ANY ruling that either differentiates between THIRD out forced base appeals at 1st or home, and the same appeal at 2nd or 3rd. Or show us ANY rule that differentiates between apparent game-ending runs and any other run scored during a game. If you can't do either, then your position is indefensible.